Our mystery prop needs I.D.

[A4K]

Interesting info Joe and Pete!

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

This discussion on feathering brings to mind the crash of bomber 42-40093, the conditions relating to its demise, and its possible association with the mystery prop. Not having any aviation experience I could really use some help interpreting the accident report. But first, here is what I know that could make this aircraft a source for the mystery prop:

1. It is a post 41-23970 production B-24D that had the 6477A-0 "paddle" blades installed, same as our mystery prop. (Earlier B-24D's had Skinny props)
2. It had R-1830-43 engines. Reduction gear on mystery prop looks like it came from that engine.
3. According to the "certificate of damage" written by the base assistant engineering officer, #4 propeller and part of the gearing case were torn off" when the plane bellied in. (see bellow) Sounds a lot like our mystery prop.

My problem with this accident is there is no indication an engine was shut down with propeller feathered!

I do have some suspicions though...

First; The aircraft was flying a "Slow Timing Mission" as a result of #4 engine having just been replaced. This is the same engine that lost a propeller in the accident. (Nothing wrong noted in paper work but it makes me wonder if something could be amiss with this engine during final approach?)

Second: While in final approach the pilot increased throttle which caused the aircraft to skid to the right. He had to apply left rudder to correct. Could the newly changed #4 engine have something to do with this? (see pilots statement bellow)

Have attached the pilots statement along with the certificate of damage for review. The full accident report is attached as a ZIP file.

Can you explain how this bomber's #4 propeller could have gotten feathered? If so maybe you identified the source of the mystery prop!

(attached)

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

Have learned the gears attached to the mystery prop are from a reduction gear assembly used on a Pratt and Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp radial engine. With consideration of aircraft used on Amchitka, the prop could have come from a B-24D or C-47 but NOT from a B-17E (used for weather and photo recon). So we can eliminate one aircraft from consideration. See post #33 above for photos of mystery prop with gear assemblies attached.

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

The stenciled specifications on the propeller blade indicate a minimum pitch of 16 degrees and max 88 degrees. According to Tech Order 00-25-29, the only aircraft authorized to use the Hamilton-Standard 23E50-6477A-0 propeller with those pitch setting is the C-47 and C-47A. That eliminates the B-24D so we are down to one airframe for consideration. Review of accident reports online resulted in the following list of prospective candidates:

Date

430414 C-47 , 42-38640 , 54TCS , LAC , 3 ,Keiser, Wilmer L
440107 C-47A , 42-24276 , 42TCS 1PTG , LAC , 5 ,Fleischman, Robert S
430724 C-47 , 41-38642 , 54TCS , TOA , 3 ,Fell, Dale J
450312 C-47A , 42-24275 , 54TCS , TOA , 4 Egan, Daniel E
450327 C-47A , 42-23963 , 54TCS , TAC , ,3, Whitby, Ned W


LAC- Landing Accident
TOA-Take Off Accident
TAC-Taxing Accident
The number after accident code indicates severity of crash with 1 minimal and 5 totaled.

The difficulty here is to match up a wreck with the damage characteristics of the mystery prop. The mystery prop is in a fully feathered position with two blades showing damage suggesting the engine was shut down at time of crash. There is part of the engine reduction gear attached which implies impact sever enough to rip the propeller from the engine. This looks like a landing accident with a 5 for damage (written off). None of the five listed above fit these characteristics.

Does anyone know of any other C-47/C-47A crashes on Amchitka Island?

Any suggestions?

 

[A4K]

Great further research mate -you've done very well to get it down to one type!

Just an idea: if it is indeed a landing accident bird (and from the above list), then 42-38640 could still be a contender. Engines can be replaced, so though the engine(s) were totaled, the airframe may have been repairable enough to be classed as a 3.

A failed take-off could be pretty devastating to the engines too, and I don't know the nature of that taxiing accident but it must have been bad to warrant a write off, so I wouldn't rule out any of the above yet myself, pending info from the more knowledgable members.

 

[swampyankee]

Hi All,
I am working with Aleutian Campaign on the prop search and have posted on the army airforces forum in the past but will stick to this venue as we seem to have all the same (most excellent) posters here.

Have taken a little different tack on ID the mystery prop. after discovering aircraft accident reports for Amchitka at this site: Accident-Reports Amchitka The most promising report was for a B-24D that lost a prop during a landing accident. It looked like the source for our mystery propeller but...as luck would have it, the accident report included a photo of the lost prop and it was not feathered, as was ours. Very disappointing discovery.

But all is not lost. The list includes a number of other prospects including a number of C-47 aircraft and a few B-25. ( BTW thanks Yves for the info on the B-25's). Here is a list of aircraft that have the 6477 blade . Might be one of the other various models of that aircraft use the 6477A-6 propeller.

Am waiting for the host of the accident-report website to search the microfilm and see if there are any other candidates for our prop. It should be noted that the website page quoted only goes from 1943 to 1955. Amchitka was used for a variety of programs after that and was serviced by both military and civilian aircraft. One of those could have contributed our mystery prop...but one thing at a time. Lets hope we get a hit from that list.

Will post results of current search when I get results from accident-reports.com host.

Took a closer look at our mystery prop and have deduced that the serial number is: SN-NK-S847? the ? could be a "6" or a "G" The S looks a little out of place but that is what it appears to be. Also the feather specs on the stencil are MIN-18 MAX_88.

The exact prop is specified in the C-47 Flight Operating Instructions Nov 1942. That gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that one of the many C-47 accidents could be a candidate for our mystery prop.

Have also emailed Hamilton-Standard asking for info on production/shipping info but didn't get an answer.

Pete
(sailman)

You could also try asking NEAM (New England Air Museum). Hamilton Standard is just down the road a mite, and there is doubtless overlap between former (and current) HSD staff and NEAM volunteers.

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

Thanks swampyankee. Excellent Idea. Have contacted the prop manufacturer earlier in the search but didn't feel we were both on the same page. There is probably more information in their files if I can contact the right person. I will try again with the New England Air Museum and maybe they can assist. Will let you know what I find out.

BTW I noticed in my earlier post I stated that min feather specs were 18 or 20 degrees and max 88. Have taken a closer look at the stencil and it is definitely 16min/88max degrees which corresponds to a C-47 and C-47A. The serial number is a little hard to read but am pretty sure it is NK-S8476. The NK is the manufacturer which is Nash-Kelvinator in Lansing, Mi. They produced props under license to Ham-Stan during the later half of WW2.

 

[Soldier]

Aleutian Campaign,
I am new to this forum. My grandfather was stationed at Amchitka during WWII from the creation of the airfield until 1944. There were several crashes due to weather. He did something he was not supposed to do, he kept a diary up until the attack that took place on ATTU. I will check to see if there were any crashes that he mentioned. I also have some photos that I have from that time frame. I believe there was one in particular that involved fatalities (which will mean there was an extensive investigation.)

Unfortunately my grandfather passed away last september so I can not ask him. But, I remember him telling me the story of a plane crash in which he helped bury the air crew that died in the crash..

I will let you know what I find.

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

Solder...Thanks for sharing the information about your grandfather on Amchitka during the war. I would be keen to see any crash photos, especially C-47 aircraft as they are the most likely source of our Mystery Prop at this writing.

You also might want to checkout Amchitka Scrapbooks for documentation of other military that served on Amchitka during WW2 and possibly post some of your grandfather's writings.

Pete

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

Thought I would give a short update/progress report on the search for the source of our mystery prop. Feathering specs stenciled on the prop strongly point to use on C-47, C-47A, C-53, C-53D aircraft and their variants such as the navy R4D1 and R-4D5 (so far only accident reports for the C-47's have been found). The feathering info is from T.O. 00-29-25 (1943). Due to pub date it does not include later models (B, C, D....). I have made an assumption that later models are also authorized to use the 23E50-6477A-0 (16min.88max) prop and have expanded my list to include all models.

While maintenance logs for these aircraft have long since been destroyed, there is still hope an exact match can be made to our mystery prop. Researching C-47 accident reports I discovered one that included a "Squadron Engineering Officer's Report". It contained detailed description of damage to the aircraft which included model numbers of the propeller blades along with serial numbers of those blades. With that piece of knowledge, I have made a request to the Air Force Historical Research Agency (AFHRA) at Maxwell AFB to provide "Engineering Officer Reports" for the accidents listed bellow (if they exist). It has been several months and am still awaiting a reply at this writing. Not sure how long it will take as this request may tax their already stressed personnel resources. The reports are one page documents so the end product is not voluminous.

Have followed up on the suggestion above to contact the New England Air Museum which is physically close to the mystery prop's manufacture, Hamilton-Standard, facility. Their staff has volunteers who, with luck might, might include a few retirees from the plant that could help. Two emails to date with no reply but I am still hopeful.

Have also found the fellow that discovered the prop on Amchitka Island in the 1970's and tried to get a dialog going by email without success. Not sure if emails are not getting through or what but may give snail mail a try. He might be able to provide a clue or two by describing the recovery of the prop from the scrape yard on Amchitka Island. What was around the prop, where exactly was it located on the island and so forth.

So, to sum it up, I am waiting for Engineering Officer Reports requested from Air Force Historical Research Agency on the following aircraft:

470421 C-47D 44-77252
470729 C-47D 45-788
461210 C-47B 45-5988
450312 C-47A 42-24275
450327 C-47A 42-23963
440107 C-47A 42-24276
430414 C-47 42-38640

Pete

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

This is a early 1970's photo of the scrap metal dump near the runway on Amchitka Island where the mystery prop was recovered. The biologist taking the image was interested in the P-38 remains and, unfortunately, not the C-47 just to the left and off frame which could be the source of our mystery prop. A small tip of OD green can be seen in the upper left corner which may be part of that aircraft. Am told the wings were missing but the fuselage was intact. Have emailed several scientists that worked on Amchitka in hopes one might have snapped a photo of the C-47 with the tail number showing.

Amchitka underwent several cleanup efforts over the years and this scrap yard no longer exists. Am told the debris was barged to mainland Alaska where it was buried in a land fill. Recycling wasn't economically feasible due to transportation costs and distances.

The main hope of identifying a specific aircraft still lies in matching up a damaged prop from an Engineering Officer Report as mentioned in the previous post. Those reports often contained a detailed description of parts replaced including model and serial numbers. Am still waiting for copies of Engineering Officer Reports from the Air Force Historical Research Agency in Alabama for the seven C-47 aircraft listed above.

Pete

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

These photos of a C-47 were taken by Capt Clifford McGinnes base engineer on Amchitka Island Dec 1944-Jan 1946. Note the hole in the left engine in the front view. It is missing its reduction gear along with the propeller.

Our mystery prop. also has a reduction gear still attached.

While there were eight C-47 accidents on Amchitka Island, only one occurred during his tour of duty :

DATE March 12, 1945

AIRCRAFT C-47A 42-24275,

UNIT 54TCS , 11 AF

ACCIDENT takeoff accident

DAMAGE 4

PILOT 1st Lt Daniel Egan USA

LOCATION Amchitka, Alaska

This aircraft could be a strong candidate as the source of our propeller. One detail that hasn't been explained is our mystery prop is in fully feathered position but there is no direct evidence that Lt Egan's aircraft had a feathered propeller at the time of the accident. He writes in his accident report narrative, just before impact "...we cut all our switches." Could he have hit the feather switch also? That could produce a post crash propeller in the feathered position.

What is your opinion? Could this be the accident that produced the mystery prop?

Have attached the accident reports for your review.

View attachment 42-24275 accident report page 1.pdfView attachment 42-24275 accident report page 2.pdf

View attachment 42-24275 accident report page 3.pdfView attachment 42-24275 accident report page 4.pdf

 

[Pete_Homer_AK]

Great further research mate -you've done very well to get it down to one type!

Just an idea: if it is indeed a landing accident bird (and from the above list), then 42-38640 could still be a contender. Engines can be replaced, so though the engine(s) were totaled, the airframe may have been repairable enough to be classed as a 3.

A failed take-off could be pretty devastating to the engines too, and I don't know the nature of that taxiing accident but it must have been bad to warrant a write off, so I wouldn't rule out any of the above yet myself, pending info from the more knowledgable members.

Sorry to be so late in replying to post A4K and thanks for your observation!

One big sticking point on several crashes including this one is factoring in feathering. 42-38640 could very well have nosed in at the end of the runway causing a prop to be torn from the engine along with the reduction gear. Unfortunately the accident report shows no indication a propeller was feathered prior to the crash and it seems unlikely to have been feathered after the crash. The mystery prop is in a feathered position.

Perhaps someone with more experience/knowledge in this area has another interpretation of the accident report and can account for the feathering?

 

[Owen_Scholz]

Looking at the accident report of C47-A 42-24275, it looks like this is your bird. The report indicates that the aircraft "veered to the left" after the pilot applied 42" Hg manifold pressure, and the copilot's report confirms symmetrical throttle advancement. Another interesting fact is the airspeed and takeoff roll distance, for a C-47, a 4500ft takeoff roll developing only a 95 MPH airspeed is highly unusual.

Due to this information, my conclusion would be that the left engine was not developing full takeoff power, looking at the report there are two probable conclusions.

First and more likely of the two, considering the time of the accident, would be that the pilots forgot to unfeather the prop after their pre-flight check of the external feathering pump causing the thrust of the left engine to be greatly reduced.

Second, and less probable, but still highly likely, is that the propeller governor had some sort of malfunction that caused the propeller pitch to remain closer to feather than it should have. This would cause the propeller to feather remarkably fast when the co-pilot hit all the switches (undoubtedly he hit the feather button first).

I hope this at least sheds a little light on your search for the aircraft this prop came off of.

 

[T.coffey]

Hi,

While surfing the web for information on our mystery prop I came upon a posting from a D. Hutchinson who worked for a company that did cleanup work on Amchitka Island over a decade ago. The company, Chris Berg Inc, was under contract to the US government. They brought the mystery prop back to Homer along with a lot of other salvage material, most of which went to the local dump. The prop was saved and put on display outside the Alaska Islands and Oceans center in Homer.

An important fact from this post is that some years earlier Jim Coffey, an employee of the government stationed on Amchitka, found the prop and set it up near the airport. One could assume he discovered the prop in an aircraft grave yard on the island. Apparently there was a lot of material left over from the war. If you check out the link to aircraft accident reports
on Amchitka in a previous post you will see that there were about 75 crashes, most at the height of the effort to take Kiska and Attu Islands back from the Japanese in 1943. Due to the remote location, many of those wrecks were written off and left on the island.

It would be great to ask Jim Coffey how he found the prop and what aircraft might have been in the area but... (sigh)I haven't been able to locate him on the internet. He also had his wife, Nancy Coffey, and daughter Tiffany Coffey along and they might be able to contribute to the history of our prop. It would be interesting to talk to D. Hutchinson to see if he could add information on the retrieval process. I believe he lives in Anchor Point, AK about 20 miles north of Homer, but again I failed to locate him.

Here is link to the site Amchitka Scrapbook Post which includes a remarkable photo of our mystery prop. near the air terminal on the Island way back in the late 1970's.

The mystery slowly unfolds...

Pete
View attachment 229153
Mystery prop near Amchitka terminal 1975-78

Hello Pete, I just came across this post on the internet. I know a lot of time has passed since you posted this. But I wanted to respond anyway, as you were looking for my family. The Coffey's. I am Tiffany Coffey. My parents are Nancy and Jim Coffey. We lived on amchitka island almost 3 years, 1975-1978 (in the airport terminal). I may possibly be able to offer some answers and history. As well as possible photos. As I'm going through thousands of slides of photos my mother took when we were there.