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- #181
Out of the Big Three WW2 bombers (B-17, B-24, Lancaster), was the Flying Fortress the most redundant?
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- #182
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Well aware of most of this - my question was the comment about the P-51D being easier to produce.
drgondog
Major
no 24 hour missions. IIRC, no mid air refueling before advent of B-50
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- #185
I have once read from a crewmember telling about 24 hour missions elsewhere. In a book about the B-24 iirc.
That's why I ask.
Same as for the French Navy 54 examples. By the way, they were coded WU (for Western Union, the defense treaty between UK, France, the USA and Benelux countries, not the financial service Co...).
Inflight refuelling? Who needs it!
From the 1945 ORB of 160 squadron based at Minneriya, Ceylon (downloadable for free from The National Archives)
In March 1945 the squadron CO noted that sorties in the latter part of 1944 had rarely exceeded 16 hours. From March the durations begin to steadily increase. On 27th March for example they flew an 8 aircraft minelaying mission to Singapore. Only 1 aircraft was in the air for less than 21 hrs 15 mins. It suffered from high fuel consumption and turned back to land early - after 19hrs 40mins! The weather is noted as "could not have been more adverse, head winds made all aircraft 1 hour late on their flight plans when half way to the target". 17 hours were spent flying in rain and cloud with extensive lightning. Distance covered was 3,460 miles. The weapon load was restricted to 2 mines per aircraft due to the distance involved. The mines being used in this period were of British and US origin and were of the 1,000 - 1,100lb variety.
Singapore was paid return mining visits in April / May again with durations exceeding 21 hours. This time the loads were increased to 3 mines per aircraft.
From June the nature of the operations changed from mining to special duties (dropping weapons and supplies by parachute to groups behind enemy lines). Virtually every sortie undertaken by the squadron in June/July/Aug/Sept 1945 exceeded 18 hours with many over 20 or even 22 hours in the air. The exceptions are few and generally relate to aircraft turning back with technical problems or due to weather.
On 28/29 July a couple of aircraft exceeded 23 hours airborne. On 30/31 July one aircraft landed at China Bay after 21 hrs 15 mins in the air after encountering 25 knot headwinds on approach to Ceylon and it was noted "Fuel indicator showed 10 gallons on landing."
Then on 31 July / 1 Aug Liberator Vc BZ862/J with a crew of 9. Duration 24hrs 10 mins and the ORB notes "The first sortie over 24 hours. A record." No distance is mentioned in the ORB but it was a special duties operation to a point not far north of Singapore. They spent 35 mins stooging around trying to find the reception committee on the ground before jettisoning the load on dead reckoning and heading for home. Elsewhere this sortie is described as "the longest unrefuelled flight ever made by any Allied landplane in World War II; distance was 3,735 mls". The other aircraft despatched that day was airborne for 23 hrs 3 mins. Again the weather is noted as "visibility poor, low cloud" and "fog". These aircraft were operating under the cloudbase, down to 1,500ft.
There is one sortie on 17-19 Sept noted with a duration of 26hrs 42mins but it included a diversion to the base in the Cocos Is due to a problem arising. So that one doesn't count!
The aircraft being flown in this period were Liberator GR.V, B-24D fitted with the extra outboard fuel tanks and built back in 1943. They carried two long range tanks in the forward bomb bay and often a 75 gal Catalina overload tank as well for the longest missions (total fuel load 2,725 gals). They were stripped of any equipment deemed unnecessary. The armament was reduced to the tail turret (usually the BP turret with 4x0.303in MG) only for these long range missions. The ORB contains notes about crews undertaking fuel consumption trials on individual aircraft to that the engines could be tweaked as necessary to eke out the maximum range. What really is noticeable is how the flight times steadily increased during the year as they began to increase in confidence about the ability of their aircraft to reach targets further away and how they were able to increase the loads that they carried.
From the 1945 ORB of 160 squadron based at Minneriya, Ceylon (downloadable for free from The National Archives)
In March 1945 the squadron CO noted that sorties in the latter part of 1944 had rarely exceeded 16 hours. From March the durations begin to steadily increase. On 27th March for example they flew an 8 aircraft minelaying mission to Singapore. Only 1 aircraft was in the air for less than 21 hrs 15 mins. It suffered from high fuel consumption and turned back to land early - after 19hrs 40mins! The weather is noted as "could not have been more adverse, head winds made all aircraft 1 hour late on their flight plans when half way to the target". 17 hours were spent flying in rain and cloud with extensive lightning. Distance covered was 3,460 miles. The weapon load was restricted to 2 mines per aircraft due to the distance involved. The mines being used in this period were of British and US origin and were of the 1,000 - 1,100lb variety.
Singapore was paid return mining visits in April / May again with durations exceeding 21 hours. This time the loads were increased to 3 mines per aircraft.
From June the nature of the operations changed from mining to special duties (dropping weapons and supplies by parachute to groups behind enemy lines). Virtually every sortie undertaken by the squadron in June/July/Aug/Sept 1945 exceeded 18 hours with many over 20 or even 22 hours in the air. The exceptions are few and generally relate to aircraft turning back with technical problems or due to weather.
On 28/29 July a couple of aircraft exceeded 23 hours airborne. On 30/31 July one aircraft landed at China Bay after 21 hrs 15 mins in the air after encountering 25 knot headwinds on approach to Ceylon and it was noted "Fuel indicator showed 10 gallons on landing."
Then on 31 July / 1 Aug Liberator Vc BZ862/J with a crew of 9. Duration 24hrs 10 mins and the ORB notes "The first sortie over 24 hours. A record." No distance is mentioned in the ORB but it was a special duties operation to a point not far north of Singapore. They spent 35 mins stooging around trying to find the reception committee on the ground before jettisoning the load on dead reckoning and heading for home. Elsewhere this sortie is described as "the longest unrefuelled flight ever made by any Allied landplane in World War II; distance was 3,735 mls". The other aircraft despatched that day was airborne for 23 hrs 3 mins. Again the weather is noted as "visibility poor, low cloud" and "fog". These aircraft were operating under the cloudbase, down to 1,500ft.
There is one sortie on 17-19 Sept noted with a duration of 26hrs 42mins but it included a diversion to the base in the Cocos Is due to a problem arising. So that one doesn't count!
The aircraft being flown in this period were Liberator GR.V, B-24D fitted with the extra outboard fuel tanks and built back in 1943. They carried two long range tanks in the forward bomb bay and often a 75 gal Catalina overload tank as well for the longest missions (total fuel load 2,725 gals). They were stripped of any equipment deemed unnecessary. The armament was reduced to the tail turret (usually the BP turret with 4x0.303in MG) only for these long range missions. The ORB contains notes about crews undertaking fuel consumption trials on individual aircraft to that the engines could be tweaked as necessary to eke out the maximum range. What really is noticeable is how the flight times steadily increased during the year as they began to increase in confidence about the ability of their aircraft to reach targets further away and how they were able to increase the loads that they carried.
You will have noted the comments about bad weather in my last post. The period from June to Sept each year is the south west monsoon season in the Bay of Bengal across which these Liberator sorties were flown. That is usually preceded and succeeded by a couple of months of cyclone season. Even in "good" weather large cloud formations build up during the day leading to heavy downpours in late afternoon and evening.
Operation Dracula (2nd May 1945), the landings at Rangoon, was pulled off just in time to avoid the SW monsoon in 1945. It broke about a week later.
Operation Dracula (2nd May 1945), the landings at Rangoon, was pulled off just in time to avoid the SW monsoon in 1945. It broke about a week later.
Yup, we can thank the Aeronavale for a few of the preserved Lancasters, including examples in Australia, New Zealand and the UK, and one in store in France.
Argentina was the last to operate either the Lancaster and the Lincoln as bombers, the last Lincoln remaining in service until 1967. In Argentine service Lancasters suffered a high attrition rate and none survive, but the last one flying ended its career in 1964. The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Lancaster PA474 has a piece of Argentine Lancaster, serial B-038 aboard in the form of its top turret, which was gifted to Britain when the two countries were friends, and was fitted to the aircraft in 1976.
Just by way of comparison to the 160 sqn 24hr mission covering 3,735 miles in Aug 1945, there is the "Shady Lady" raid nearly two years earlier.
In what was then believed to be the longest sortie to date the B-24D-53-CO "Shady Lady" from 380th BG, flew from Fenton, NT, Australia via Darwin to Balikpapan and back to crash land at Drysdale Mission in 16 hrs 35mins. That was on 13/14 Aug 1943. It covered some 2,700 miles, carrying a 3,000lb bomb load and again encountered some atrocious weather. They even released a movie about it in 2012.
pacificwrecks.com
It illustrates quite clearly how the Liberator was stretched to greater and greater feats as the war went on.
In what was then believed to be the longest sortie to date the B-24D-53-CO "Shady Lady" from 380th BG, flew from Fenton, NT, Australia via Darwin to Balikpapan and back to crash land at Drysdale Mission in 16 hrs 35mins. That was on 13/14 Aug 1943. It covered some 2,700 miles, carrying a 3,000lb bomb load and again encountered some atrocious weather. They even released a movie about it in 2012.
Pacific Wrecks - B-24D-53-CO "Shady Lady" Serial Number 42-40369
On August 13, 1943 took off from Fenton Airfield south of Darwin piloted by 1st Lt. Doug Craig on a bombing mission against the oil refineries at Balikpapan and the next morning force landed near Drysdale Mission.
It illustrates quite clearly how the Liberator was stretched to greater and greater feats as the war went on.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Flying a 20+hr mission in any bomber at all in 1944 is pretty badass.
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- #192
It proofed a machine which doesn't fall apart in mid-air even if one might assume that and seemed more robust than most would give her credit for.
So the bad rep is party undeserved, at least to a certain degree.
B-17 was already an old design at the start of WWII, the B-24 was a new design.
B-17 was designed in peacetime by engineers with time on their side to 'do it right' - the B-24 was designed fast as a mass producible warplane.
By 1944 the B-17 was well past its sell by date and being replaced rapidly by the B-24
Orders for a further 5,000 B-24's were cancelled on VJ Day
B-17 production had ended in July 1945
B-17 was designed in peacetime by engineers with time on their side to 'do it right' - the B-24 was designed fast as a mass producible warplane.
By 1944 the B-17 was well past its sell by date and being replaced rapidly by the B-24
Orders for a further 5,000 B-24's were cancelled on VJ Day
B-17 production had ended in July 1945
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"Old design"? In what way? What model B-17s and B-24s are we comparing?
Ok....
WRONG! The B-24 WAS NEVER being fielded to replace the B-17 - If you're talking about the ETO, there was talk of the B-32 replacing BOTH aircraft
Reference? But basically irrelevant...
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
The B-17 may have been a design that just hit the "sweet spot". Like the DC-2/3. Every time someone tries to come up with something better, they just come up with the same thing.
The B-24 design started in 1938 Consolidated were invited to submit the design for its model 32 in Jan 1939. Work by Boeing on the B-29 started in 1938 with design submitted in May 1940 the Consolidated design which became the B32 was submitted at the same time. Very few designs made it into the war that werent started in peacetime, especially as far as the US is concerned. The Me 262 was flying before the USA entered the war, it got jet engines in July 1942 but it was already designed. If you start with a clean piece of paper in Dec 1941 you dont have time to do everything needed to get it functioning and in production by Aug 1945.
While generally true there is always the odd exception. I give you the Grumman F8F Bearcat.
Depending on what you read its gestation goes back to June 1942 post Midway at the earliest, or to early 1943 after one of the Grumman test pilots had flown a captured Fw 190. Formal design began around late July 1943, the instruction being to wrap the smallest possible airframe around the R-2800 engine. The USN awarded a contract for 2 prototypes on 29 Nov 1943. Prototype first flight 21 August 1944. Production started at the Bethpage factory in Jan 1945. It passed the Carrier Suitability Trials in Feb. The first squadron, VF-19, began to receive its aircraft on 21 May 1945. It was ready for service by 1 Aug. As the war ended it had been ferried along with the rest of CVG-19 to Hawaii, and was awaiting the arrival of its planned parent carrier, USS Hornet. Due to the end of WW2 Hornet, after completing her repairs in mid-Sept, was diverted to Magic Carpet duties.
The second squadron, VF-18, began to swap its F6F for F8F during Aug 1945.
But I grant you that it an extraordinary achievement and a testimony to "The Ironworks".
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Go Grumman!
It just made it into service but not to any real effect and by the time Grumman started on the Bearcat it was their 3rd generation fighter, they really knew what they were doing. You could also include the Hawker Tempest, which went fairly well, because all the screw ups had been on the Typhoon.
According to Wiki the B-24 was requested based on lessons learned from the B-17 "In January 1939, the USAAC, under Specification C-212, formally invited Consolidated[7] to submit a design study for a bomber with longer range, higher speed and greater ceiling than the B-17." So without the B-17 the B-24 would possibly be a B-17 in performance.
