P-40 vs. Hurricane

[the lancaster kicks ass]

hey adler, how come you managed to spam your way up to so many posts already?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

8)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Because most of my posts are legit posts, unlike yours.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

that was low man......

 

[book1182]

Let's keep it simple.

Guns: Tie - Hurricane; the different variations that it could care make it a a good fit for any fight, P-40 has those dependable .50cal.

Turn radius: Hurricane wins, can turn on a dime.

Dive: P-40 wins, could dive with the best of them.

Number of allied nations that flew P-40: all of them
Number of allied nations that flew Hurricane: 3-4???

WINNER P-40 WARHAWK

(Don't hold me to the nations that flew the Hurricane. It was just a general statement that the P-40 was flown by more nations.)

 

[JonJGoldberg]

Reply to book1182>>>

As for firepower, I believe at times the edge, however small goes to the Hurricane, as the only time the Hurri is at a disadvantage, firepower wise (when comparing aircraft produced at the same time IE '40C Vs Mk IIb) is in comparing the 6x .50 '40 variants with the 12x .303 Hurris. However the rocket ready 4x Hispano 20mm Mk IIc, wins the firepower contest hands down, even if you feel like discounting the 2x 40mm Tank Buster Mk IIe.
As for nations that flew the Hurri...
*Canada, with factory from '39
*Belgium, with factory
*Yugoslavia, with factory
*USA
*Turkey
*Poland
*Iraq
*Iran
*Portugal
...to name more than three, keep things mired in the muck of complexity. How many nations built P-40s? PS, check out my profile previous posting. PPS, Welcome!!!

 

[Jabberwocky]

Let's keep it simple.

Guns: Tie - Hurricane; the different variations that it could care make it a a good fit for any fight, P-40 has those dependable .50cal.

Turn radius: Hurricane wins, can turn on a dime.

Dive: P-40 wins, could dive with the best of them.

Number of allied nations that flew P-40: all of them
Number of allied nations that flew Hurricane: 3-4???

WINNER P-40 WARHAWK

(Don't hold me to the nations that flew the Hurricane. It was just a general statement that the P-40 was flown by more nations.)

Its a little more complicate than that;

Speed; P-40

Generally speaking the P-40 was faster than the Hurricane at most altitudes, but the advantage was less above 20,000 feet.

Climb: Hurricane

The Hurricane climbed to 20,000 feet faster than the P-40, taking about 8 minutes compared to the P-40's ~9. Initial rate of climb is also heavily in favour of the Hurricane.

Rate of Roll: P-40

The P-40 rolled significantly better than the Hurricane. However the Hurricane had exceptional responsiveness and balance in it alierons and harmony of controls, which make up for it somewhat.

Cockpit layout/visability: tie

Both had heavily framed cockpits and the limited foward vision of long nosed fighters.

Armament; Hurricane

4 20mm Hispanos hose all over 6 .50 cals. The USN recokned that 1 20mm was equal to 3 .50 cals, giving the Hurricane approximately twice the firepower.

The Hurricane could haul 2 500lbrs or, more importantly, 8 rockets. While the P-40N could actually carry 1500lbs total, it never had the dedicated ground attack capability (rockes or 40mm Vickers)

Range; P-40

Range on internal fuel was roughly similar, about 500 miles. The Hurricane was only ever cleared for small droptanks (45 imp gal I think) which stretched its reange out to 1000 mile. The P-40, on the other hand, could reach about 1400-1500 miles with 3 drop tanks.


Reliability: tie

Both the Merlin and the V-1710 were excellent reliable engines. Both took to overboosting and modification very easily. The Hurricane was always one of the most serviceable and reliable British fighters of the war.

Armour/protection; P-40

The heavier construction and use of a completely stressed skin airframe meant that the P-40 was more rugged and resiliant to enemy fire than the Hurricane. It carried heavier weights of armour, which better protected its pilots.

Repairability; Hurricane

The Hurricane was an exceptionally easy airframe to maintain and repair. Its fabric construction on the wings and tailplane were remarkably easy to patch and repair.

Mulit-role capability: Hurricane

The Hurricane performed as a search and rescue plane, carrier fighter, catapault launched convoy escort, dedicated ground support fighter and anti-shipping fighter.

Ease of flight; Hurricane

The Hurricane was supposedly one of the most forgiving fighters in the sky. It was actually easier to handle than the Spitfire. It had very gentle departure characteristics and fairly easy recovery. It also had nice wide track landing gear and worked well as a carrier fighter.

The P-40 was well known for nastiness and pecularities in its stall regieme. It was also very troublesome in the stall, having a tendancy to cartwheel and flip end over end.

Useage: Tie

The Hurricane was used by Britain, France, Belgium, Australia, the Netherlands, Russia, Romanis, South Africa, Canada, Yougoslavia and Turkey.

The P-40 was used by New Zealand, USA, Britain, Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, Russia, South Africa, Turkey, Egypt and France.

I'm still going to favour the Warhawk, but only by the smallest of margins. One on one, the Hurricane is probably a the better dogfighter. However, as WW2 was about a team effort and not necessarily about classic dogfights, the better speed, dive, roll and zoom climb of the P-40 would keep a sensible group of pilots safer and give them better results.

 

[102first_hussars]

The Hurri never had 12 .303's they had eight, eventually the Hurri was stripped of 2 to add more room of the 2 underwing 20mm cannons not 40mm, and if your going to add such commonwealth countries at the time such as Canada,Turkey and Iraq, make sure you add South Africa, Libya, Egypt, India, ect.

Oh Russia made use of both the P-40 and The Hurri

 

[plan_D]

The Hurricane IIB had twelve Browning .303cal. The Hurricane IID had two Browning .303cal and two Vickers-S 40mm cannon under-wing.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The Hurri never had 12 .303's they had eight, eventually the Hurri was stripped of 2 to add more room of the 2 underwing 20mm cannons not 40mm, and if your going to add such commonwealth countries at the time such as Canada,Turkey and Iraq, make sure you add South Africa, Libya, Egypt, India, ect.

Oh Russia made use of both the P-40 and The Hurri

There were approximately 3000 Hurricane Mk IIBs built with the 12 x .303 armament in the UK, and another 400 or so made in Canada as the Mk X. Quite a few 12 gun Hurricanes were converted to 4 cannon armament after 1942, when the emphasis for the Hurricane switched to the fighter-bomber and ground attack roles. The Hurricane went straight from an all machine gun armament to an all cannon armament.

The 40mm armed Mk IID and Mk IV had 2 .303s and 2 40mm Vickers anti-tank guns. The .303s were generally used for sighting the cannon, not as aerial weapons.

There were Hurricanes armed with 20mms and .303s together. There were several experimental installations of overwing and underwing 20mm Hispanos where the original 8 gun armament was retained. The Hispanos weren't even fitted into housings, just bolted to the top or undersurface of the wing. There are some great pictures of them in this months 'Flypast'.

However, even during the experimental trials during the Battle of Britain, no sesrial production Hurricane flew with a mixed Hispano and .303 Browning armament.

The Russians fitted a pair of 20mm ShVak and a pair of 12.7 UB in the wings of the Hurricane, trading weight of fire for some improvement in performance. By most accounts it was a fairly sucessful marriage, having more firepower than the majority of Russian fighters at the time. The Russians never really liked the Hurri, they felt that it was too slow to be competitive with the 109s and 190s and not as nimble and only marginally faster than the I-16s that it replaced in some units.

 

[Gnomey]

Good info guys!

 

[MacArther]

I like the Hurricane for its role in the Battle of Britian, and as an anti-tank weapon, but I still think that the P40 was the better dog fighter. Dunno, maybe its a hometown bias . Plus, the Hurricane was fully developed, while the P40 was only developed as far as Curtis could make money.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The Hurricane wasn't fully developed, there were just better aircraft that were produced in favour of it.

The Hurricane Mk V would of been the ultimate production version. Fitted with a 1,700 hp Merlin 32, a four bladed propellor and the new universal wing of the Mk IV as well as other detail improvements, it would of been the most potent low-altitude Hurricane. Even with modifications though, it was recognised as obselete, and Hawker began concentrating on Typhoon development.

I'd say that the P-40 family was developed as much as the Hurricane, if not more. It went throught a long evolution of engine, cooling and armament fittings. It was produced in lightweight and longrange variants, converted for ground attack etc, etc. It went through sevice versions A to N, which certainly tells of a long developement.

Curtiss really botched P-40 production. The investigation of Curtiss-Wright, headed by Harry Truman, concluded that the P-40 was being produced to maintain a profit margin, not to benefit the war effort. It recommended that Curtiss be forced to stop making P-40s and start a P-51 (Allison engine) production line. However, C-W had already failed at attempting to manufacture the P-47, so the recommendations were essentially ignored.

 

[MacArther]

Yes, but search the internet for the XP-40Q. Curtiss's main hiearchy may not have saw fit to improve the fighter much, but obviously some of the engineers had other ideas.

PS Post a compairson pic of the final hurricane (prototype) and the final P40 (prototype)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Repairability; Hurricane

The Hurricane was an exceptionally easy airframe to maintain and repair. Its fabric construction on the wings and tailplane were remarkably easy to patch and repair.

Fabric could be easy to repair but it's not resilient and will rot. If the Hurricane took a hit in the welded steel tube that makes up the fuselage, the damage has to be cut and a new section welded into place, not as easy as it sounds. Although mild steel is pretty easy to weld, it is prone to stress cracking if not properly relieved after the weld is completed.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yes, but search the internet for the XP-40Q. Curtiss's main hiearchy may not have saw fit to improve the fighter much, but obviously some of the engineers had other ideas.

PS Post a compairson pic of the final hurricane (prototype) and the final P40 (prototype)

I know all about the P-40Q. I also think that it was a waste of time developing it, as the P-38, P-47, P-51 and P-63 were superior to it in almost all respects, and were already in serial production. Also, it wasn't just a couple of engineers doing it by themselves. The P-40Q was developed over several years and multiple prototypes, not something that goes on without complete company approval.

With the P-40Q, I think Curtiss was desperately trying to squeeze more performance out of a design in 1944 that they should of abandoned in 1940/41. If they had redesigned the P-40 from the ground up, with a longer fuselage, larger vertical surfaces, improved cooling and airscoop and added a turbocharger, then it would of been competitive. Something like they did with the XP-60A, but a little more radical than just redesigning the wing to take 8 .50's and adding a GE turbocharger. Look at how the P-35 evolved into the P-47 and the performance enhancements there, something like that type of change was needed.



As for the Hurricane and repairability. I still maintain that the Hurri would of been less maintence intensive and repairable for light battle damage, but more vulnerable to heavy battle damage. The CRO in the UK would rebuild/repair damaged Hurricane airframes in very short amounts of time. Hurricane repair times were much short than those for Spitfires, which due to its stressed skin construction, required more work for similar amounts of damage.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Light battle damage, I agree, any big damage to the welded tube, it's CRO time!

I think by the time the P-40Q came to be the AAF had enough with Curtiss...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

that was low man......

I know, wasn't it!

The Hurri never had 12 .303's they had eight,

You are saying?

Hurricane armament:

Hurricane IIA Series 1: 8 × 0.303 inch (7,7 mm) guns

Hurricane IIA Series 2: Hurricane Mk IIA fitted with 4 × 20 mm Hispano cannons

Hurricane IIB: 12 × 0.303 inch (7,7 mm) guns

Hurricane IIC: 4 × 20 mm cannons

Hurricane IID: 2 × 40 mm Rolls Royce BF cannons, 2 × 0.303 inch (7,7 mm). The 40mm Rolls Royce BF cannons were later replaced by 2 × 40 mm Vickers 'S' cannons.

Hurricane IV: 2 × 0.303 inch (7,7 mm) Browning guns with provisions for 2 × 40 mm cannons, or 2 × 500 lb (227 kg) bombs, or Smaal Bomb Carriers, or 8 × 60 lb (27 kg) air-to-surface rockets, or 2 smoke-laying installations.

 

[cheddar cheese]

And I thought that Hurricane IIB's 12x .303's were well known about...obviously not

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No I think that most people know about the 12x .303's.