P-40 vs. Hurricane

[jrk]

the hurricane could also take a s**tload of punishment and could still get home.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep!

 

[cheddar cheese]

But I betcha the Hurricane was easier to repair... Actually I dont know about the P-40's ease of maintenance, how was it?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

But I betcha the Hurricane was easier to repair... Actually I dont know about the P-40's ease of maintenance, how was it?

They both had good and bad points - Sheet metal requires a bit more skill and could be more time comsuming. Fabric is easy to repair but is not as resilliant as aluminum, it also deterioates in weather - also the Hurricane had that welded steel tube fuselage frame - if bent, broke, or shot away could probably be a real b*tch to repair.

Airframe systems, the only thing I could see a bit complicated is the P-40s landing gear that reversed backwards upon retraction which meant there was either 2 actuators or a pressure cam that turned the landing gear rearward. Both had hydraulic flaps....

 

[Soren]

A repost - but nails home the point!!!

"Records of success in combat like these were not isolated to the Pacific Theater. In Italy the 325 Fighter Group, commonly know as "The Checker-Tailed Clan" amassed one of the best kill to loss ratios of any fighter group in the European Theater. With a yellow and black checkerboard adorning the tail of their P-40s (and later P-47s and P-51s), they flew many sorties against more numerous German forces, and won most of the time. In 1943 the 325th won two major engagements. On July 1, 22 checker-tailed P-40s were making a fighter sweep over southern Italy when they were jumped by 40 Bf-109s. After an intense air battle, the result was half of the German aircraft shot down for the loss of a single P-40. There was a similar situation on the 30th of July, again over Italy, when 35 Bf-109s ambushed 20 P-40s. On this occasion, 21 German fighters were shot down, again for the loss of a single P-40. Because the pilots of the 325th were trained to maximize the P-40's strengths and minimize its weaknesses, it became a lethal opponent for the German fighters. The final record of "The Checker-Tailed Clan's" P-40s was 135 Axis planes shot down (96 were Bf-109s), for only 17 P-40s lost in combat."

The P-40 took its lumps - it sure gave it out as well....

One must remember though, that at this time of the war American "kill counts" were very inflated. Not to say that the P-40 didnt do well against the axis, cause it definitely did.

Of crucial importance to this thread is, German pilots in Africa rated the P-40 a more dangerous opponent than the Hawker Hurricane.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A repost - but nails home the point!!!

"Records of success in combat like these were not isolated to the Pacific Theater. In Italy the 325 Fighter Group, commonly know as "The Checker-Tailed Clan" amassed one of the best kill to loss ratios of any fighter group in the European Theater. With a yellow and black checkerboard adorning the tail of their P-40s (and later P-47s and P-51s), they flew many sorties against more numerous German forces, and won most of the time. In 1943 the 325th won two major engagements. On July 1, 22 checker-tailed P-40s were making a fighter sweep over southern Italy when they were jumped by 40 Bf-109s. After an intense air battle, the result was half of the German aircraft shot down for the loss of a single P-40. There was a similar situation on the 30th of July, again over Italy, when 35 Bf-109s ambushed 20 P-40s. On this occasion, 21 German fighters were shot down, again for the loss of a single P-40. Because the pilots of the 325th were trained to maximize the P-40's strengths and minimize its weaknesses, it became a lethal opponent for the German fighters. The final record of "The Checker-Tailed Clan's" P-40s was 135 Axis planes shot down (96 were Bf-109s), for only 17 P-40s lost in combat."

The P-40 took its lumps - it sure gave it out as well....

One must remember though, that at this time of the war American "kill counts" were very inflated. Not to say that the P-40 didnt do well against the axis, cause it definitely did.

Of crucial importance to this thread is, German pilots in Africa rated the P-40 a more dangerous opponent than the Hawker Hurricane.

Dude - this action posted was one of the most touted P-40/ Me-109 encounters, I doubt there was any inflation - give credit where credit is due - this day the Luftwaffe got waxed!

 

[Soren]

A repost - but nails home the point!!!

"Records of success in combat like these were not isolated to the Pacific Theater. In Italy the 325 Fighter Group, commonly know as "The Checker-Tailed Clan" amassed one of the best kill to loss ratios of any fighter group in the European Theater. With a yellow and black checkerboard adorning the tail of their P-40s (and later P-47s and P-51s), they flew many sorties against more numerous German forces, and won most of the time. In 1943 the 325th won two major engagements. On July 1, 22 checker-tailed P-40s were making a fighter sweep over southern Italy when they were jumped by 40 Bf-109s. After an intense air battle, the result was half of the German aircraft shot down for the loss of a single P-40. There was a similar situation on the 30th of July, again over Italy, when 35 Bf-109s ambushed 20 P-40s. On this occasion, 21 German fighters were shot down, again for the loss of a single P-40. Because the pilots of the 325th were trained to maximize the P-40's strengths and minimize its weaknesses, it became a lethal opponent for the German fighters. The final record of "The Checker-Tailed Clan's" P-40s was 135 Axis planes shot down (96 were Bf-109s), for only 17 P-40s lost in combat."

The P-40 took its lumps - it sure gave it out as well....

One must remember though, that at this time of the war American "kill counts" were very inflated. Not to say that the P-40 didnt do well against the axis, cause it definitely did.

Of crucial importance to this thread is, German pilots in Africa rated the P-40 a more dangerous opponent than the Hawker Hurricane.

Dude - this action posted was one of the most touted P-40/ Me-109 encounters, I doubt there was any inflation -

I wasn't talking about just 'one' of their actions, but the final overall score of the Checker-tailed P-40's.

give credit where credit is due - this day the Luftwaffe got waxed!

There are many occasions where the axis got "Waxed", and vice versa, and claims were inflated on both sides. The difference is the confirmation system, and by 43 the German system was more thorough than the Allied one.

 

[lesofprimus]

The difference is the confirmation system, and by 43 the German system was more thorough than the Allied one.

I'll definatly agree with that Soren...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'll agree too - but the 325th had been pretty scrutinized - I think you're not going to find too much out of place....

 

[lesofprimus]

That I also will agree with...

 

[jrk]

the hurricane was a better "killer" fighter when upgraded to the rolls royce merlin 20 engine and fitted with 4 20mm hispano cannon.

that comparissson is made to the earlier hurricanes and the later hurricane 2b fighter bomber version.

 

[JonJGoldberg]

...Due to slight inactivity at Best Fighter, my liking of the aesthetic of the P-40 (Although I also greatly like the Hurri') my - 2cents... Historically Hurricane... Personally the P-40.

Hurricane was probably the most adapted (single engine) airframe on the planet. Stats on survivability would be misleading, as no other Allied fighter, was launched discarded, regardless of outcome, such as the cat-launched models. I know of few other aircraft, of the period, that started as a land based model, and then went to sea, largely unmodified (Seafire came after this worked with the Hurricane, and went through a much higher degree of modification; further, arguably, the Spit started life as a float plane racer). I greatly respect the Hurricane…
However the '40, plane to plane (Hurri' 2C's firepower excluded) was overall a better 'fighter' (Maybe I'll Put Them Into My Tables), once the 'shark' mouth was applied by the Brits, a sharper looking piston engine fighter aircraft other than the P-40B/C has not been made (at least not one bearing a shark/tiger mouth). Oh, before I give stats as to why the '40 bests the Hurri'... The '40 did 1st fly, as the '40, in Oct. 1938, after the Hurricane, but in reality it was a re-engine Hawk 75 (P-36) which 1st flew in April '35, but due to engine development problems, didn't meet spec 'till Feb. '37, with deliveries filling US foreign orders beginning in '38. Some interesting things about Don Berlin's design, as the Hawk 75, precursor of the '40 >
*French Hawk 75C-1 claimed the 1st Allied air victories of WW2.
*P-36s at Pearl claimed the 1st American air victories of WW2.
*Captured from the French, Norwegians, the Hawk actively served in the Finnish air force.
*Vichy French Hawk 75s were used against Allied forces in N Africa Syria, making it the 1st aircraft to actively serve on both sides, in two theaters.
Now the stats > > >
Speed is life > P-40B = 367 Hurri 2b = 340 Bf-109E = 345
Run Away Dive > P-40B = 480 Hurri 2b = 390 Bf-109E = 466
Best Roll Rate > P-40B = 135@360 Hurri 2b = 65@220 Bf-109E = 95@250
Best Turn Rate > P-40B = 36.5@256 Hurri 2b = 38.3@261 Bf-109E = 34.8@251
Initial Climb Rate > P-40B = 2860 Hurri 2b = 2950 Bf-109E = 3100

OK maybe there are no clear winners here, but the '40 was competitive with the 'average' at the time it was a 'front line fighter', where it was better, speed, dive, it was in categories that left it's pilot with choices it's advisories pilot did not. But please, like most American fighters, don't engage in a turn/stall fight with a '40, roll, and dive or fly (speed) away, gain advantage, then come back in…

 

[evangilder]

Goos analysis, Jon. They are both unsung aircraft of the war, durable and reliable. They lacked the glory that other aircraft like the Spitfire and Mustang, yet labored on. I think this is probably going to come down to personal taste as there is not clear winner.

 

[Gnomey]

Goos analysis, Jon. They are both unsung aircraft of the war, durable and reliable. They lacked the glory that other aircraft like the Spitfire and Mustang, yet labored on. I think this is probably going to come down to personal taste as there is not clear winner.

Good post Jon.

Well said Eric, it is just personal preferance.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep - both of them were one ot the most underrated aircraft of WW2

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That I will deffinatly agree with.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

both of them were one ot the most underrated aircraft of WW2

does that sound odd to anyone else?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh Lanc your grammer is not the greatest either!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Me.....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

OKay if FBJ thinks so then...