lukeready4war
Recruit
- 6
- Apr 25, 2009
i thing war will break lol
P-51 vs. Hellcat
- Thread starter nimrod.michaeli
- Start date
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lukeready4war
Recruit
- 6
- Apr 25, 2009
mustangs suck go BMW
lukeready4war
Recruit
- 6
- Apr 25, 2009
mustangs suck go BMW
I suggest you stop being an asshat noob or you will be removed from this forum.
evangilder
"Shooter"
One more unintelligible post out of you, luke, and you are outta here.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I think that the P-51B-15 with Malcom Hood has it over the Hellcat.... It had it over the P-51D thats for sure....
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Is this done on equal terms? Mustang with carrier landing equipment or the Hellcat without it?
evangilder
"Shooter"
Gotta go with the P-51 on this one. Yes, the Hellcat had a higher kill/loss ratio, but the Mustang served in BOTH Pacific and European theaters for the US.
Quote from Saburo Sakai:
And for the record, the top Hellcat ace, David McCampbell had 34 victories. The top Mustang ace, Don Gentile, had 35 kills.
When you look at the service record and longevity, the P-51 was kept around for a lot longer after the war, serving in some countries well into the 1980s.
Quote from Saburo Sakai:
And for the record, the top Hellcat ace, David McCampbell had 34 victories. The top Mustang ace, Don Gentile, had 35 kills.
When you look at the service record and longevity, the P-51 was kept around for a lot longer after the war, serving in some countries well into the 1980s.
I don't know if this could be taken into account in this arguement due to many of those poorer countries who used the Mustang not having aircraft carriers, and needing a carrier bird.
evangilder
"Shooter"
But if it was better than the Mustang, other countries would have wanted it too, right?
evangilder
"Shooter"
Not with liquid cooled engines for the US Navy anyway.
drgondog
Major
Well, the Thread is P-51 vs Hellcat with no distinction regarding opponents fought, missions flown, mission profile or even distinctions between dash numbers. The way I looked at it was 'bring what you have' and talk about it.
I am of the school that the P-51B-15 with Merlin 1650-7 and malcolm hood was the best overall performing - aerodynamically - fighter that the US fought with during WWII.
I acknowledge and agree that the F4U-4 was its peer - better in some flight regimes, inferior in others.
For the ETO, this airplane was the difference maker in US Strategic bombing capability.
For the PTO, the F4U-4 was a better choice simply because it was carrier qualified. The F6F-5 and P-38L in my opinion were superb but slightly below the Mustang and Corsair.
A comment on air to air scores is in order also.
The Mustang scored most of its victories in the ETO and MTO, and the run on the LW was between Dec 43/Jan44 through Jan 14, 1945. After that period the Luftwaffe basically and dramatically reduced defending the West to shift to East to fight VVS.
While the 51s fought in CBI, they really had no dog in the IJA/IJN hunt in the PTO until the Phillipines, then Iwo Jima, were taken and the Mustangs were in a position to not only escort with very limited time over Japan - but also sweep the home island and Formosa. Still, the resistance was low compared to the opportunities for the F6F in 1945.
Next - compare the fighter vs fighter engagements for Mustangs against LW as a percentage of bomber engagements, against F6F engagements with aircraft in the PTO, mostly much slower, with no armor or self sealing tanks and ask the question - How much tougher was it to shoot down a 190 and 109, the 262/163 and Ar 234 (and the odd He 111, Do 217 and He 177) than an A6M or Tony (or Val or Betty)? How many more 'damaged and crash landed' 109s and pilots lived to fight again - versus the Zero making a water landing in the middle of the Pacific?
On the other hand the Hellcat was experiencing volumes of low time pilots, flying in mostly obsolete fighters by 1945 standards (some exceptions but not very many Raidens/George/Shidens were engaged proportionately) all the way through the end of the war.
IIRC and I may not remember and should look it up - there were far more equal to superior performance aircraft produced and flown (Me 262, FW 190D, Me 163) by Germany than the lesser performing George, Raiden, and Shiden's combined.
Summary - Most big 51 battles were over after January 14, 1945 in the ETO. The residual talent remaining in the LW was far higher in 1944 than in IJA/IJN in 1944 but still enough aircraft and low time pilots to get huge scores against for example, large Kamikaze attacks.
So, with this fabric to look at, the Hellcat was awarded 200+(?) more e/a in the air and FAR fewer destroyed on the ground against FAR less formidable airfield defenses in its combat career and folks want to make air to air awards the determinant?
Hi Amsel,
>That is correct, but only if those nations needed a carrier bird.
Actually, if the F6F-5 had been considered better than the P-51D, non-carrier nations would not have cared that the F6F-5 could also land on a carrier
(The Vought F4U Corsair saw service with some non-carrier nations, I believe.)
But anyhow, the original question was: "if the two were to fight who do you think would win" ... and it doesn't look too good in that regard for the F6F-5.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
>That is correct, but only if those nations needed a carrier bird.
Actually, if the F6F-5 had been considered better than the P-51D, non-carrier nations would not have cared that the F6F-5 could also land on a carrier
(The Vought F4U Corsair saw service with some non-carrier nations, I believe.)
But anyhow, the original question was: "if the two were to fight who do you think would win" ... and it doesn't look too good in that regard for the F6F-5.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
I understand. I was just making conversation. Everyone knows that the P-51 was one of the best fighters of the war. A better comparison would be against maybe a La-7 or a Fw-190 D9 then a heavy, reliable carrier bird.Hi Amsel,
>That is correct, but only if those nations needed a carrier bird.
Actually, if the F6F-5 had been considered better than the P-51D, non-carrier nations would not have cared that the F6F-5 could also land on a carrier
(The Vought F4U Corsair saw service with some non-carrier nations, I believe.)
But anyhow, the original question was: "if the two were to fight who do you think would win" ... and it doesn't look too good in that regard for the F6F-5.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
The so-called 'Football War' of 1969 was waged between El Salvador and Honduras and the engagement in the air was fought by a mixed bag of P-51s and F4Us; I don't believe either country could afford a carrier and both sides opted for both the types mentioned above - neither selected the F6F.
From what I recall, the Salvadoreans made significant strides on the ground but were given a spanking in the air which stopped their ground offensive in its tracks. Interestingly, they lost most of their P-51s to the Honduran F4Us; speculation but possibly indicative as to why the F6F wasn't selected?
Incidentally, the last piston-engine vs piston-engine engagement in any conflict area to date.
I agree with what your saying about performance but have to seriously question your logic concerning Honduras's choice in a/c being an F4U and not the F6f. That may be true but other factors may have been taken into consideration.
drgondog
Major
E ~ in all fairness the top ETO Mustang air to air scorer was George Preddy (23.83), Then J.C Meyer with 23 then Eagleston (18.5) then I think, Kit Carson ( 18.5). These are P-51 scores only.
George Voll, 31st FG in MTO w/21, Varnell 52nd FG w/17
Pappy Herbst in China w/18
Preddy had 3 more with P-47 , Meyer 3.5 with P-47 before the 352nd got Mustangs
Gentile got 15 in Mustangs, 4.33 in P-47 and 2 in Spits. The rest were on the ground.
There were quite a few more in the 13 -17 range in ETO and MTO Mustang scorers.
Note that 9 of McCambell's scores were Vals, Judy's and Dinah's. Most were Zeke's and Oscars with a couple of Hamp's. Compare against Me 109G and K as well as Fw 190A and D.
All of Meyer's scores were 109s and 190s except one Ar 234. (plus Mig 15s in Korea). Similarly Preddy except for 2 Ju 88's, and 1/2 of a 410.
I am NOT denigrating McCampbell but I had made a point earlier that the Hellcats had a lot of shots on easy to shoot down Jap bombers and his scoreboard illustrates the point.
The top scorers for US were P-38 pilots (PTO), then Hellcat (PTO), then P-47 (ETO) for top 6 fighter aces, Then P-51 (ETO) and F4U(PTO) dominate with a couple of Hellcat and P-47 insertions.
evangilder
"Shooter"
You're right Bill. I wasn't sure if all of McCampbell's kills were in the Hellcat. While I do love the Hellcat and it's record, against a P-51, I still think the P-51 would have the advantage, except off of a carrier deck, of course. The Hellcat is big and brutish while the Mustang is more sleek.
The Hellcat is big and brutish while the Mustang is more sleek.
