cheddar cheese
Major General
I thankee 
p51 vs p47
- Thread starter brad
- Start date
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wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
German documents/interviews I've come in contact with credit the P-47 as much more instramental in the defeat of the Luftwaffe.
The P-38L beats them both!
The P-38L beats them both!
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
no it didn't.................
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
the lancaster kicks ass said:
In what respect? It flew, climbed, and accelerated faster, carried more flew further, and higher, out rolled, and out turned them.
In the words of a P-51/P-38 combat pilot (Ithink it was Art Hieden) "There is nothing a P-51 can do that a P-38L cant Do better" he flew the P-38s first. 8). In interviewing a number of P-51/P-38 pilots, C.C. Jordan, some of whom prefered the P-51 the most derogitive comment was that it was an "icewagon" ( early models). All conceeded the P-38 gave nothing away in ACM.
The P-47 had a survivability edge at straffing but that's it unless you want to figure in the P-51H and the P-47N/M then they have a top speed advantage. As the wildcat showed that isn't enough by itself.
Sorry I know this is a P-47/P-51 duel.
Erich
the old Sage
every German Luftw vet said the P-51 was the contender for air space over the Reich from the summer of 44 till war's end.............sorry guys
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
That may be so, however the German leaders gave the P-47 the credit for destroying the Luftwaffe.
The P-38s were being used more for ground attack after early summer '44 but was in a large part responsible for the air control that was achieved by that time. Remember the P-38 gave better than it got when the Germans owned the sky over Germany when the odds were 10-50 to one.
The P-38s were being used more for ground attack after early summer '44 but was in a large part responsible for the air control that was achieved by that time. Remember the P-38 gave better than it got when the Germans owned the sky over Germany when the odds were 10-50 to one.
Erich
the old Sage
German leaders such as whom sir ?
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Many of Germanys Top Aces in Europe were shot down by P-47's, as well as a few Me262's...... It was a good plane.....
But I agree with Erich, that the majority of Luftwaffe pilots respected the P-51D more so than the P-47.....
But I agree with Erich, that the majority of Luftwaffe pilots respected the P-51D more so than the P-47.....
evangilder
"Shooter"
Kind of an unfair comparison. The P-47 did a reasonable job for bomber escort before the P-51s arrived. Obviously, the range of the 51 was it's greatest strength. After the P-51s got to Europe in numbers, the P-47 was more focused on ground attack, which it did very well. Even then though, it still managed to wrack up quite a number of air-to-air kills. For the pilots, I am sure they would say the P-51. I am not sure what the guys on the ground at the airfields would say, but I would venture to guess the P-47. It kind of depends on what you see more of, I would think.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
lesofprimus said:
I'm not sure where the statements about the P-47 doing the most damage came from but I've seen that statement from several sources and it does include the ground attack portion. I'll try to fing some of those references.
As an escort the P-51s would be the focus of the fighter pilot so naturaly they would consider them the greater opponent.
The P-51s smothered more than out fought the Luftwaffe. It was good enough, more than the best aircraft. They also had training/experiance over just about any aircraft in the war, even more so, as the war went on.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
was the -262 on it's take off/landing approach??
The P-51 was the best US fighter.
The P-47 was a very good fighter, but it was an even better ground attack aircraft.
The P-38 (AKA The Icebox)was a failure as a fighter in NW Europe, but it was a reasonable ground attack aircraft.
But the best Allied fighter to see service in Europe was the Spitfire mk XIV,
No if, buts or maybe's \/
The P-47 was a very good fighter, but it was an even better ground attack aircraft.
The P-38 (AKA The Icebox)was a failure as a fighter in NW Europe, but it was a reasonable ground attack aircraft.
But the best Allied fighter to see service in Europe was the Spitfire mk XIV,
No if, buts or maybe's \
/
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
i'd agree with that.................
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
redcoat said:The P-51 was the best US fighter.
The P-47 was a very good fighter, but it was an even better ground attack aircraft.
The P-38 (AKA The Icebox)was a failure as a fighter in NW Europe, but it was a reasonable ground attack aircraft.
But the best Allied fighter to see service in Europe was the Spitfire mk XIV,
No if, buts or maybe's \
The P-38 was not a failure! As stated before it maintained in the ETO:
4/1 ratio in combat
Historians award 2,500+ kills
2 f/g accomplished a 4/5% bomber loss rate not bettered by 7 P-51 2 P-47 (long rangs escort) f/gs
They did this while
Developing the P-38
Learning Tactics and gaining experiance The P-51/P47s benefitted from
Bad gas and ground support infrastructure Also benifitting following planes
Close escort
Experianced German resistance (requiring bringing 'Wild Bore' f/s to daylite operations.
Air superiority over Germany was established by march 44 when the P-51s were just reaching parity with the P-38s
Furthermore there is a famous story about a Spit XIV vs P-38 dogfight where they sized eachother up then the P-38 got on the Spit's tail and stayed there up to and including a low level, low angle split s that the P-38 followed through but was dangerously low so the fight was called off at that point before someone got hurt - the point having already been made.
Your comments are uninformed, Try the following web pages
P-38online http://p-38online.com
Planes and Pilots of WWII This one has very good articles.
p-38(C.C.Jordon) http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html
There are also several books out there that clear up a lot of the misconceptions about the P-38.
The P-38 had problems in the ETO, but when needed - in spite of the Problems - it allowed the bombers to continue deep raids for at least 6 months at a critical time, and gave much better than it took!
In the MTO and the Pacific The P-38 was the best. Historians credit it with 5,730+ in the PTO and 608 in the MTO ( included in the 2,500). Considering they did this while doing Close escort, ground attack and more experianced adversaries And less airsraft 10,000 P-38s (8,200+ kills total for the war) to 15,000+ p-51s (5,932 kills for the war) and 16,000 P-47s (7,000+ kills for the war) is even more remarkable.
Even if you take the, incorrect, 1,771 ETO + the 5,730+ PTO = 7501+ more than the P-51 anyway!
The P-51B/C/D/K has only three things it can do better than a P-38L
1. Cost $53,000 vs 115,000
2. Visability no booms to look around
3. 56% of the P-51s fuel is internal the P-38 has 41% internal though the P-38 flew longer operational missions.
The P-38L did everything else better, period.
The P-51 was the best single engined (that's why most comparisons include that qualification!) fighter. It was compettetive wint anything else it had to fly against and had the range to take it to the enemy and still go home.
Erich
the old Sage
hmmmmmmmmm no I would not agree that the March 1944 date would be true. Possibly during Normandie and afterward.
The birth and life of the 354th fg overshadowed any other fighter group in the ETO with the pilots flying the P-51 which they favoured over the P-47 later in the fall of 44.
Wilde Sau fighters from JG 300 were not brought over to fly day time missions until June of 44 and later JG 301 flying out of Austria and Hungary until being pulled back in the fall of 44 to the Reich defence.
The birth and life of the 354th fg overshadowed any other fighter group in the ETO with the pilots flying the P-51 which they favoured over the P-47 later in the fall of 44.
Wilde Sau fighters from JG 300 were not brought over to fly day time missions until June of 44 and later JG 301 flying out of Austria and Hungary until being pulled back in the fall of 44 to the Reich defence.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
Erich said:
Erich, I was being careful not to exagerate but I think that is close.
i will try to find the exact source but one of mine mentioned Galland bringing either 1 or 2 F/Gs into the daylite raidsin November '43 to bolster the me-110s in the bomber attack role as the fighters were being countered by the P-38 escorts.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
Erich said:
The P-38s started earnest escort in late October '43 with 2 F/Gs the first P-51Bs were just starting to arrive. The first P-51 F/G went operational in late December '43 reaching parity with the P-38s in mid to late Spring '44.
The P-38s began ground attack (in earnest) in the ETO about the same time (mid-late spring '44) to prepare for D-Day. They were phased out of the ETO escort roll by late September '44.
Erich
the old Sage
I think what you meant to say is that twin enigne night fighters were called to help stem the tide of heavy day light bombers.
In the fall of 43 through spring of 44, Bf 110G's with heavy radar as well as some staffels equipped with the twin Br 21cm rocket launchers............
as friend and ace Peter Spoden has told me, (he flew one of these heavy beasts), if any Allied escorts were in the area, we knew we would be dog meat............
E ~
In the fall of 43 through spring of 44, Bf 110G's with heavy radar as well as some staffels equipped with the twin Br 21cm rocket launchers............
as friend and ace Peter Spoden has told me, (he flew one of these heavy beasts), if any Allied escorts were in the area, we knew we would be dog meat............
E ~
