Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine

[michaelmaltby]

The frightening thing about this whole affair is that it is - as presented by the captive Media in Russia to the Russian people - POPULAR. Some oligarchs have lost a few billion but the average Ivan isn't hurting ... and Putin's ratings are good on the street, if not the boardroom.

What to do ...?

For starters I'd like the western media to start monitoring and showing news of this to viewers in the west..... we need to know the distortion behind Putin's 'popularity' .... I'm thinking specifically of reports by Russian media that the victims were already dead ... that the incident was manufactured as evidenced by all the shiny new passports .... That gives you some measure of what you can spin on TV with a little government co-operation/intimidation.

 

[stona]

What to do ...?

Since there is no military option then a meaningful political one needs to be found. The only way for this to happen is for the EU and USA to start singing from the same hymn sheet. At the moment the USA, UK, Australia, Netherlands and a few others are pushing for more stringent sanctions but within the EU (which obviously doesn't include the aforementioned Australians) there is no will to impose them. The Germans in particular have their own vested interests in NOT being too hard on Russia. It's about energy and trade, nobody wants to damage their own fragile economies as they look like they might just be recovering. Whilst this disjointed and uncoordinated action from the EU and USA continues Putin and the Russians will continue laughing up their sleeves and continue doing what they want. Has everyone forgotten the annexation of most of the Crimea already?
Cheers
Steve

 

[michaelmaltby]

"....Has everyone forgotten the annexation of most of the Crimea already?"

I'm afraid to answer that ... however, Canada's position as stated this week is that the shoot-down is a direct consequence of Putin's occupation and de-stabilization campaign.

Given the energy consequences of dependent Europe turning on their 'dealer' I don't hold out much hope in the short term ... but it's time to make Putin a pariah.

 

[stona]

Canada's position as stated this week is that the shoot-down is a direct consequence of Putin's occupation and de-stabilization campaign.

That reflects the position of the EU and other 'western' allies. The problem is, as demonstrated by the Russians in the Crimea, they don't care what position we take. Standing in a parliament or equivalent body making statements doesn't hurt or bother the Russians in any way. Nor does imposing travel bans on a few oligarchs or freezing a few bank accounts.

The EU is not in a position to impose any meaningful sanctions as some of its most powerful members are more worried about the effects on their own economies than what might happen to the Russians. The Russians aren't stupid, they are well aware of this. It makes statements and threats from whatever the equivalent of the despatch box in the UK parliament is in others, just so much hot air.

Some politicians in our western democracies are deluding themselves that their puny measures have in some way constrained the Russians and the militias they fund and support in the Ukraine. They haven't and at the end of this game the Russians may very well end up with exactly what they wanted, just as in the Crimea.

Cheers

Steve

 

[michaelmaltby]

"....They haven't and at the end of this game the Russians may very well end up with exactly what they wanted,"

Which is what, IYCO ...?

 

[Marcel]

Tomorrow the first victims will land here. Aircraft from the Netherlands an Australia will fly them here. A Belgian airplane has fetched the black boxes and will bring them to the UK. Great international effort. Hope these bastards will not shoot these aircraft down.....

 

[stona]

"....They haven't and at the end of this game the Russians may very well end up with exactly what they wanted,"

Which is what, IYCO ...?

Russian control or annexation of the Crimea, eastern and southern Ukraine. These regions would eventually become part of the Russian Federation. All are regions with substantial Russian speaking majorities and regions with many cultural and political ties to Russia/Moscow rather than Kiev/Ukraine. That's what Putin wants and I believe he will eventually get it. All the bluff and bluster from various western capitals, including yours and mine, is recognised for what it is in Moscow.

Our politicians have to sound tough in the face of an atrocity like this, they want to be re-elected. Putin doesn't have to worry about such niceties and in any case his objectives are popular with the vast majority of Russians, and Russian Ukrainians. This last point is glossed over in the western media, as it was in the case of the Crimea and just like the results of the Crimean referendum on federation with Russia were.

Cheers

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

A thought that has crossed my mind, is what has happened to the Black Boxes while in Russian/rebel possession?

As designed, they should contain intact (readable) information even under the harshest conditions (extreme impact, submersion, fire, etc.). I truly hope I am wrong, but I suspect the Black Boxes will allegedly be "damaged" beyond use, so there's not recoverable information that can be used to indicate what happened.

 

[Marcel]

We'll see Dave. Nothing we can do now. I don't think all this speculation helps. For me, I'm glad we retrieved probably most of the bodies. When they are here, we will be relieved. Hopefully the investigation will make clear what happened and then proper actions can be taken.

 

[at6]

That's one spin of the big picture, and not a single bit of it belongs in this discussion.

So we had better stop the political bullsh!t right now, or else the mods will clamp down hard on this thread.

You're right GrauGeist. My bad and while I never meant it to be, I offer my apologies for the way it came out.

 

[GrauGeist]

Perhaps I am getting cynical in my old age, Marcel, that's why the thought of tampering was the first thing I thought of. This whole mess in the Ukraine is out of old playbooks, repeating over and over again through the ages.

The names have changed, but the places and the suffering of people have not. This is something as a society, we never seem to learn.

The only comfort (if there is such a thing) is that your countrymen were recovered, will be back on home soil and laid to rest soon.

 

[Hartmann52]

Russian control or annexation of the Crimea, eastern and southern Ukraine. These regions would eventually become part of the Russian Federation. All are regions with substantial Russian speaking majorities and regions with many cultural and political ties to Russia/Moscow rather than Kiev/Ukraine. That's what Putin wants and I believe he will eventually get it. All the bluff and bluster from various western capitals, including yours and mine, is recognised for what it is in Moscow.

stona, Never it will not!
Crimea - Ukraine is. South East - it is Ukraine. Only in this way and not otherwise!

 

[stona]

stona, Never it will not!
Crimea - Ukraine is. South East - it is Ukraine. Only in this way and not otherwise!

Wanna bet?

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

...All are regions with substantial Russian speaking majorities and regions with many cultural and political ties to Russia/Moscow rather than Kiev/Ukraine. That's what Putin wants and I believe he will eventually get it. All the bluff and bluster from various western capitals, including yours and mine, is recognised for what it is in Moscow...

I might mention that there are Russian speaking populations in all of the former Eastern Bloc countries (Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, etc.) but this does not give Putin the green light to just wander in and claim that as his own territory.

There is a large Russian speaking population in the Sacramento area here in California, left over from the early fur hunter days (same with Alaska)...should Putin decide to annex Sacramento for the greater good of Mother Russia and her children?

What's at issue here, is that the Ukraine is a sovereign nation and nibbling away at it through various means, using the art and pretense of "Lebensraum" just can't be permitted in the 21st century. And at what point is enough, enough? It took how long for the appeasement of Hitler's "protecting" German speaking populations before things got out of hand?

 

[stona]

The Ukraine as a 'sovereign nation' is a 1990s construct. It has a long and complicated history including subordination to various other powers at various times, most recently the USSR.

I don't believe that the Russians have any right to march in and annex any part of the Ukraine or Crimea, but they can and either will or already have. Who is going to stop them? The Kiev government?

I'm just pointing out the obvious.....realpolitik.

Steve

 

[Hartmann52]

stona, there is no real policy - there is a crazy Russian Fuhrer. If we follow your logic, Kaliningrad should be given to Germany, the Far East - Japan and China.
Knowingly gave Ukraine in 1996 nuclear weapons in exchange for a piece of paper called incomprehensible Budapest Memorandum ...

 

[Marcel]

Oh please, maybe you guys can start a different thread about the 'Russian Fuhrer'. I have my ideas about this, too, but for me not the time, not the place.

Tomorrow The Netherlands will have a 'national day of mourning'. At 16.00h CET, when the first aircraft lands, we'll have 1 minute of silence for the fallen victims. Let us all think of those who died and those left behind.

 

[stona]

stona, there is no real policy - there is a crazy Russian Fuhrer. If we follow your logic, Kaliningrad should be given to Germany, the Far East - Japan and China.
Knowingly gave Ukraine in 1996 nuclear weapons in exchange for a piece of paper called incomprehensible Budapest Memorandum ...

It's not my logic and I don't believe that the Russian Federation has any right to the territories in the Crimea and Ukraine. My question remains, who is going to stop the Russians from taking them? Nobody seems to have an answer to that, least of all western leaders and that is why I believe that Russia will get away with it.
I base my opinion on a rational analysis of recent history, has anyone got an alternative?
Cheers
Steve

 

[Hartmann52]

Marcel, Sorry for the off-topic. But all these events are closely linked - Russia directed, armed and trained the terrorists who are responsible for the death of nearly 300 people. It does not matter - it's a great policy or geopolitics, Putin is to blame the deaths of all those people.
Once again, sorry

 

[michaelmaltby]

CUT OFF PUTIN'S WORLD VISA card!

[h/t jm]