Erich has also commented on accounts that showed B-17 crews would abandon ship even before the closing in Fw 190s began firing.
PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS
- Thread starter FLYBOYJ
- Start date
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Erich has also commented on accounts that showed B-17 crews would abandon ship even before the closing in Fw 190s began firing.
Very interesting set of comments of there, although i will dispute your argument "the basic situation has been researched and published, some time ago". There are still issues to be thoroughly approached, and a book that was published 12 years ago might become junk in the near future...but more importantly there are things that happened during the last 5 or 6 months of the war we might never know of at all, ever.
So in the end all you are saying is that the Soviet "partisans" of the Korean War claim the USAF guys did manipulate information regarding the actual causes for their losses during such conflict...and that basically you agree with what 2 guys who wrote one book say regarding the performance of the Me 262....so you discovered the Russians lie (which does not surprise me at all) and that 2 guys who wrote such book regarding the jet already hit the nail.
but what is it with that comment "the people using untrue or unproven statements to refer to another war"?
Erich
the old Sage
from the cebudanderson site covering Robert winks Me 262 jet kill on January 15, 1945 the only real action of the day. 357th fighter group
The Squadron was at 15K feet when I spotted a lone aircraft doing slow-rolls on the deck flying in a direction away from the airfield. There were patches of snow on the ground, and the aircraft was visible whenever it overflew a patch of snow. I called it into Major Peterson but he was not able to locate it, so he gave me permission to hit it. By this time the bogey had reversed its direction and was coming back toward the airfield. I dropped my external wing fuel tanks at 15K feet, and rolled over into a near vertical dive...5 degrees of flaps with the throttle cut full back. I was closing very fast in a picture perfect combat curve, and when he came into range, I hit him from the high-rear with all six fifties' 240 rounds, right in the cockpit area. The plane caught fire, half-rolled onto its back, and dove right into the ground, and exploded. From some point behind me, probably not fifty feet away, I heard Pete Peterson say "Nice shooting!" He was right there, camera and all, just in case!
Within seconds I had pointed the nose of my plane into the heavens,...upped flaps... and it seemed that I was being helped along by the Germans exploding 20 37 mm rounds behind me. They were everywhere around me, when I discovered that I could not hear the sound of my engine! It was windmilling! No power! NO GAS!, you fool, you dropped the external wing tanks without switching to your internal tanks. SWITCH IT!...and the prop was turning so fast that it must have sucked about ten foot of air lock right out of the fuel line in seconds, and we passed through the 15K foot altitude level somewhere around the speed of sound. Or so I was praying!
With the speed of the dive and the short burst of 240 rounds, I was not certain that it was a Me-262 until I landed in England, and Pete Peterson confirmed it.
Pete Peterson could have taken that kill instead of allowing me to do it. It was his prerogative, as Squadron Leader, and I would have thought non-the-less of him, for doing so. But he gave it to me, and that victory qualified me as an Ace. Pete finished combat as a triple-Ace, but he was much more than that among the pilots of the 364th Fighter Squadron, and the 357th Fighter Group.
Captain Bob Winks flying P-51, "Trusty Rusty"
The Squadron was at 15K feet when I spotted a lone aircraft doing slow-rolls on the deck flying in a direction away from the airfield. There were patches of snow on the ground, and the aircraft was visible whenever it overflew a patch of snow. I called it into Major Peterson but he was not able to locate it, so he gave me permission to hit it. By this time the bogey had reversed its direction and was coming back toward the airfield. I dropped my external wing fuel tanks at 15K feet, and rolled over into a near vertical dive...5 degrees of flaps with the throttle cut full back. I was closing very fast in a picture perfect combat curve, and when he came into range, I hit him from the high-rear with all six fifties' 240 rounds, right in the cockpit area. The plane caught fire, half-rolled onto its back, and dove right into the ground, and exploded. From some point behind me, probably not fifty feet away, I heard Pete Peterson say "Nice shooting!" He was right there, camera and all, just in case!
Within seconds I had pointed the nose of my plane into the heavens,...upped flaps... and it seemed that I was being helped along by the Germans exploding 20 37 mm rounds behind me. They were everywhere around me, when I discovered that I could not hear the sound of my engine! It was windmilling! No power! NO GAS!, you fool, you dropped the external wing tanks without switching to your internal tanks. SWITCH IT!...and the prop was turning so fast that it must have sucked about ten foot of air lock right out of the fuel line in seconds, and we passed through the 15K foot altitude level somewhere around the speed of sound. Or so I was praying!
With the speed of the dive and the short burst of 240 rounds, I was not certain that it was a Me-262 until I landed in England, and Pete Peterson confirmed it.
Pete Peterson could have taken that kill instead of allowing me to do it. It was his prerogative, as Squadron Leader, and I would have thought non-the-less of him, for doing so. But he gave it to me, and that victory qualified me as an Ace. Pete finished combat as a triple-Ace, but he was much more than that among the pilots of the 364th Fighter Squadron, and the 357th Fighter Group.
Captain Bob Winks flying P-51, "Trusty Rusty"
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Great story Erich.
Erich
the old Sage
yes I luv these first hand accounts.
January 16th 1945 : no air activity against jets but the 4th fg with their P-51's strafed the airfield at Neuburg housing 262's of II./KG(J) 54 and 1 was destroyed by .50's.
January 17, 45 : Hauptmann Peter Eder with 9./JG 7 pops 1 B-17 possibly from the 351st bomb group.
January 18, 45 : an Me 262 damaged severely due to a flap accident crashes upon landing.
January 16th 1945 : no air activity against jets but the 4th fg with their P-51's strafed the airfield at Neuburg housing 262's of II./KG(J) 54 and 1 was destroyed by .50's.
January 17, 45 : Hauptmann Peter Eder with 9./JG 7 pops 1 B-17 possibly from the 351st bomb group.
January 18, 45 : an Me 262 damaged severely due to a flap accident crashes upon landing.
- Thread starter
- #366
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Not to go off subject but there's been a lot of discussion recently of Soviet claims during the Korean war. I don't have exact numbers but the Russians claimed something like 650 F-86s during the Korean War. A total of 650 F-86s actually cycled through Korea, so we know the Soviet's claims are way out of this world on that claim. I also remember reading that they claimed something like 180 F-80s. That was about the entire F-80 strength in Korea! The USAF admits to something like 78 F-86s lost in air-to-air combat with another 225 or so lot to other causes. The USAF Claimed over 700 Migs, the Soviets admit to 345. Let's say at least half of those 225 F-86 losses were actual air-to-air losses (113). Combine those with the 75 and it gives a grand total of 345 Migs to 188 F-86s, that's still almost 2 to 1 USAF vs. Soviets, and that's using the Soviets own admitted loss numbers!. With all this said there is still no way to accurately divide the kills by country. With that all said in Korea it's my opinion that the F-86 vs the Mig 15 with Soviets, Chinese and Koreans combined probably had a conservative 4 to 1 kill ratio. Believing anything else is just buying into old Soviet propaganda...
- Thread starter
- #368
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Thanks Udet - I know we (the West) have been enlightened with new information regarding Soviet Pilots in Korea since the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union. Although many old Korean War vets have come foward to confirm what was already known, I believe a lot of the "newer" stories by some of these guys and authors who document their claims is nothing more than repeated Soviet propaganda carried down over the years and it's apparent by the the claims made by the Soviets. There is no denying that US (UN) claims were also exaggerated but if you put it in perspective the US (UN) air-to-air victory claims are a lot more believable than some of the BS put out by the Soviets. Bottom line Soviet lied.
Photoshop Jockey
Recruit
- 3
- Jan 31, 2007
Hi, guys. My name's Dan Zoernig. I'm an aviation illustrator and found this thread during some research for a project I'm working on. 7/29/44 Art Jeffrey flying a P-38J shot down an Me 163, which was the first of the type to be claimed by the Allies. Has anybody mentioned 163 shootdowns over the last 25 pages of this thread? I read the first 3 pages, but then skipped the rest. Very interesting material, just not enough time.
Best,
Dan
Best,
Dan
Erich
the old Sage
Dan :
there is always time ...... just kick back and relax.
no you won't find any of the 5 claims mentioned of Me 163's as they were not of consequence during the air war over the Reich. I'd like to stick with the Me 262A as well as possibly the Ar 234 at some point as they contributed to the Luftwaffe war efforts, or at least the Luftwaffe thought so .........
welcome aboard 8)
E ~
there is always time ...... just kick back and relax.
no you won't find any of the 5 claims mentioned of Me 163's as they were not of consequence during the air war over the Reich. I'd like to stick with the Me 262A as well as possibly the Ar 234 at some point as they contributed to the Luftwaffe war efforts, or at least the Luftwaffe thought so .........
welcome aboard 8)
E ~
Erich
the old Sage
just a teaser ........... more coming
the pilot of the above P-51 "Tar Baby" is still alive
the pilot of the above P-51 "Tar Baby" is still alive
twoeagles
Senior Airman
Beautiful, Erich! A moment in history frozen forever. I can't get enough
color wartime photo's.
color wartime photo's.
Erich
the old Sage
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Can´t help, it´s all going to be great stuff, Erich.
And did I ever mentioned that the -51 was nothing short of a beauty?
wow, authentic, great shots.
And did I ever mentioned that the -51 was nothing short of a beauty?
wow, authentic, great shots.
Chingachgook
Banned
- 214
- Nov 20, 2006
I am not really here...
But while I am not here I should tell you (as best I can remember) something that a Sherman tank commander told me many years ago (sorry no real sources here other than his name - Joe Shlickman - he was head of NYC Transit when I knew him).
Joe said that they had entered Germany from Belgium early '45. He and his tanks were in a wide open area. Overhead they saw a tail-less "jet" that attacked four (4) P-47s at near ground level. The "jet" would loop down and shoot and then loop back up again after each attack, repeating four times and downing ALL FOUR P-47s.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
References to jets from the ground pounders
From: BATTALION COMBAT HISTORY - WWII ETO, 2ND BN, 13TH US INF, 8TH DIV
THE 2ND BATTALION JOURNAL (Code Name GREYHOUND WHITE)
. . .
15-14 Feb 1945 - Elements of BN moved to ROETGEN to practice river crossing assault, then returned to the reserve area. We practiced more amphibious operations near EICHSWEILER. Strafing by Luftwaffe was heavy along the river, as well as artillery. Jet planes were seen for first time.
. . .
24 Feb 1945 - EASY, under Capt Warren, and FOX, under Capt Hemphill continued moving into the residential area against strong resistance and repeated shelling. Maj Dunlap, our splendid BN CO, was lost here during a barrage by 120mm mortars, along with Lt Hickok, S-2, and Lt Iko of HOW. Capt Warren was wounded shortly afterwards. Major Leonard assumed command of the BN and appointed Capt Strickland as Exec., Capt Chamblee as S-3, and Lt Jacobson as S-2. Lt Silcox assumed command of HOW Co. The assault proceeded, but very slowly now as FOX had entered another band of AP mines. The bridge was now complete behind us, and as our platoon of tanks arrived they were attached to GEORGE Co, under the command of Lt Good, and this Task Force was committed on the left flank to pass thru EASY Co thus permitting this unit to partially reorganize. GEORGE Co jabbed 500 yds straight ahead. The final assault was ordered in the form of an envelopment from the left by GEORGE and EASY plus one Plt from FOX; an innovation in this night attack, made at 0100 in the morning, was that one Plt of GEORGE and one of EASY rode on our Tank and T. D. Plts under a canopy of artillery fire (155) in order to pass thru the AP mine fields surrounding the fortification. We were successful. The rocket fire was particularly heavy, in taking the barracks, In addition to the rocket fire, German jet planes bombed and strafed, making the night an inferno, but in this particular thrust through AP mine fields to the barracks we lost one Tank-Inf team only. By 0300 we were buttoned up and the 121ST INF passed thru us to continue the attack - Mission accomplished.
. . .
Rich
From: BATTALION COMBAT HISTORY - WWII ETO, 2ND BN, 13TH US INF, 8TH DIV
THE 2ND BATTALION JOURNAL (Code Name GREYHOUND WHITE)
. . .
15-14 Feb 1945 - Elements of BN moved to ROETGEN to practice river crossing assault, then returned to the reserve area. We practiced more amphibious operations near EICHSWEILER. Strafing by Luftwaffe was heavy along the river, as well as artillery. Jet planes were seen for first time.
. . .
24 Feb 1945 - EASY, under Capt Warren, and FOX, under Capt Hemphill continued moving into the residential area against strong resistance and repeated shelling. Maj Dunlap, our splendid BN CO, was lost here during a barrage by 120mm mortars, along with Lt Hickok, S-2, and Lt Iko of HOW. Capt Warren was wounded shortly afterwards. Major Leonard assumed command of the BN and appointed Capt Strickland as Exec., Capt Chamblee as S-3, and Lt Jacobson as S-2. Lt Silcox assumed command of HOW Co. The assault proceeded, but very slowly now as FOX had entered another band of AP mines. The bridge was now complete behind us, and as our platoon of tanks arrived they were attached to GEORGE Co, under the command of Lt Good, and this Task Force was committed on the left flank to pass thru EASY Co thus permitting this unit to partially reorganize. GEORGE Co jabbed 500 yds straight ahead. The final assault was ordered in the form of an envelopment from the left by GEORGE and EASY plus one Plt from FOX; an innovation in this night attack, made at 0100 in the morning, was that one Plt of GEORGE and one of EASY rode on our Tank and T. D. Plts under a canopy of artillery fire (155) in order to pass thru the AP mine fields surrounding the fortification. We were successful. The rocket fire was particularly heavy, in taking the barracks, In addition to the rocket fire, German jet planes bombed and strafed, making the night an inferno, but in this particular thrust through AP mine fields to the barracks we lost one Tank-Inf team only. By 0300 we were buttoned up and the 121ST INF passed thru us to continue the attack - Mission accomplished.
. . .
Rich
Henk
Master Sergeant
Give me the Beauty of a German aircraft, but I will not say the rest is ugly.
Jank i did not say that if it was not German then it was ugly. The P-47 D is one of the best looking planes of the war...the Mustang is a stain by the side of the Jug.
I would like to see the photo of a Bf 109 G-10 during late 1944, showing its camo pattern design, now that´d be something.
I would like to see the photo of a Bf 109 G-10 during late 1944, showing its camo pattern design, now that´d be something.
Henk
Master Sergeant
No mate I did not point out taht you said any of that, but I still love me German aircraft.
