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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
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PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS
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ccheese
Member In Perpetuity
I donno, Joe... He may have flamed out just before he augered in ! 
Charles
Charles
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
one more
drgondog
Major
The english version of his autobiography (by Constable/Toliver) read fine. What point are you trying to make with that utube link.. you know the actual combat footage was dominantly Fw 190 and the others maybe 109 or 110 - all slow closing speeds relative to a 262??
You know 262s went down at altitude for one of three reasons - mechanical malfunction to an egine rendering it vulnerable to everything, brain malfunction by pilot deciding to engage in the horizonta, and finally a victim of great shooting?
If I am standing still and you fly past me at 100MPH, and I can boot a little rudder and pull deflection on you going away - how long do you suppose you are in range of 6x50 or 8x50 or 4x20mm?
Or you are closing from below and behind, don't see me, and I pull a diving pursuit curve to close from your 3 to 5 o'clock and pull deflection, you suppose you might be vulnerable for maybe 3 to 4 seconds?
Erich
the old Sage
man I am repeating myslef again, look JV 44 was not an elite group there were cadre from all the fighter and bomber squadrons some not even with medals on theri chests, also JV 44 did not carry R4M's as you say all the time, this was also the case for I. and III./JG 7 who usually carried them as they put them first into practice on 18 March 1945. sorry but after JG 26 Galland was confined as inspector of day fighters on the ground until he got back in the cockpit of a 262 in JV 44, no time in the air so not sure where you get he shadowed US bomber formations in a 110 or 210 as he would be meat to US escorts, that's wrong
you need to get some 262 resources in your library, sorry bud I've been doing this way too long and a book of mine is preparation at the moment if you couldn't tell by this thread, just on all of this which will be much more indepth than Mr. Hess's with many first person accts
you need to get some 262 resources in your library, sorry bud I've been doing this way too long and a book of mine is preparation at the moment if you couldn't tell by this thread, just on all of this which will be much more indepth than Mr. Hess's with many first person accts
drgondog
Major
- Thread starter
- #488
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
BOOM HEADSHOT!
parsifal
Colonel
CW CAG ops off Korea record only one, possibly two Migs lost to the Furies
"FAA pilot Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael Royal Navy downed a MiG-15 jet fighter in air-to-air combat, making the Sea Fury one of the few prop-driven fighter aircraft to shoot down a jet-powered fighter."
There is also an unsubstantiated claim that a second Mig was shot down that day.
Having said that the Furies and the Fireflies being operated by the CW TG were quite able to survive in Mig Alley. This drew some praise from the US commander afloat as I understand it.
"FAA pilot Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael Royal Navy downed a MiG-15 jet fighter in air-to-air combat, making the Sea Fury one of the few prop-driven fighter aircraft to shoot down a jet-powered fighter."
There is also an unsubstantiated claim that a second Mig was shot down that day.
Having said that the Furies and the Fireflies being operated by the CW TG were quite able to survive in Mig Alley. This drew some praise from the US commander afloat as I understand it.
I agree with your first and final point, but trying to engage in the horizontal was by no means a brain malfunction if the pilot knew what he was doing. However as it was the pilots were mostly rookies with little flying time, and they undoubtedly (And this has been commented on by both Allied Axis pilots) let the speed drop too low and didn't assess the situation properly.
Experienced Me-262 pilots could engage in the horizontal with supreme confidence as they knew what speed not to drop below, both in terms of turning capability and acceleration. Above ~450 - 470 km/h the Me-262 accelerated faster than any prop job and could turn just as well. Below 450 km/h the Me-262 started to loose its acceleration advantage and the prop jobs could keep on their turns a lot better, no contest.
Because of its high speed the Me-262 was a stressful a/c to fly, very high G's being pulled a lot more frequently than in the prop jobs, and the controls were light and effective right up to maximum allowed speed, which was one of its advantages over the prop jobs. It was definitely no plane for a rookie.
Now as Erich pointed out the Me-262 wasn't uncatchable, esp. not when attacking the bombers or when coming around after an attack run to have another go, as they usually were running in cruise mode at that point.
drgondog
Major
Soren - I am now through the histories of the 352, 357 and 355FG awards on 262's. I am sorry but two things happened when a 262 started the turn 100mph faster and turned in the horizontal with a Mustang. a.) it lost a lost of energy, and b.) the Mustang could cut the circle and get a nice deflection 'head shot'.
The 262's best strategy was to fight in the vertical.
So far, for the distribution of the combined 339FG, 352FG, 355FG and 357 FG jet awards, there were 44 Me 262 Awards. Of those (~40% of all 8th AF awards) that I have looked at in the last day -
25% (12)were hit at altitude and resulted in destruction or bail out
50% (22)were hit at altitude, chased and destroyed while attempting to reach protection of airfield flak and air cover but not in landing pattern.
25% (12) were destroyed during take off or landing.
None of this 44 were "I hit him and last saw him smoking going into a cloud' These were a/c seen to blow up or pilot seen leaving a/c
From the encounter reports most of the initial hits at altitude were deflection shots in the horizontal or a prolonged and unseen diving approach, resulting in a perceived major loss of power, rendering the Me 262 unable to evade by speed or performance - that sums up about 3/4 of the 44 I looked at.
It was not a good move to stay and play without using the inherent speed advantage to gain altitude and energy.
Erich
the old Sage
Bill
your observations look spot on for all the 8th AF fg pilots that shot down jets and the Me 163.
speaking of the latter I am in email conversation with the daughter of a former pilot of the 364th fg that shot down the only Me 163 claimed by the group. Hopeful more on this later as it proceeds.
E `
your observations look spot on for all the 8th AF fg pilots that shot down jets and the Me 163.
speaking of the latter I am in email conversation with the daughter of a former pilot of the 364th fg that shot down the only Me 163 claimed by the group. Hopeful more on this later as it proceeds.
E `
drgondog
Major
I imagine that as long as you could keep a 163 in sight, he was in deep yogurt when he became a glider. I do know the 355th didn't get one in the air and only saw a few.
Erich
the old Sage
very very few shot down in actual combat, poor SOB's in JG 400 usually got vaporized or melted in those things on take-off and terrible landings if the fuels were not expended. thinking about landing one of those ricketie things creeps me out
really was a worthless piece of air garbage, the guys should of been equipped with the Me 262A-1a, and some of JG 400 pilots did transfer over to JG 7 in spring of 45.
As you say Bill and I have as well several times, the 262 was not great on it's turn radius the 8th AF Stang pilots could turn into them and let them have it with .50's.
really was a worthless piece of air garbage, the guys should of been equipped with the Me 262A-1a, and some of JG 400 pilots did transfer over to JG 7 in spring of 45.
As you say Bill and I have as well several times, the 262 was not great on it's turn radius the 8th AF Stang pilots could turn into them and let them have it with .50's.
drgondog
Major
it is about like an A-7 against a MiG 21.. do anything you want against the A-7 but go horizontal with it.
My father used to wax my ass on the simulator at LTV.. didn't matter which airplane but I got closer when I stayed on the outside and made high low off angle passes then climbed back to retreat and find advantage with the MiG 21. I Never beat him flying the A-7 against his 21.
51 has to be pretty comparable in the match up versus the 262.
How are you recovering and when do you want to come over for best Texas steak in Oregon? The only hazard in the experience is two size 21 Wolfie heads drooling 2" from the plate..
Erich
the old Sage
dang that steak sounds great Bill...it will be in August and I will contact you, am going overseas next week through first part of August. moving slow and it is taking it's time for healing up.........really nuts. cannot sit long enough behind the PC to type as I get stiff real fast, and as to those Wolfs of yours put them out on the patio while we eat 
E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed
E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed
drgondog
Major
dang that steak sounds great Bill...it will be in August and I will contact you, am going overseas next week through first part of August. moving slow and it is taking it's time for healing up.........really nuts. cannot sit long enough behind the PC to type as I get stiff real fast, and as to those Wolfs of yours put them out on the patio while we eat
E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed
Lol - I eat at Their will - but I'll work on a deal.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
U guys crack me up.... Glad to see ur offering ALL of our members here the best Texas Steak in Oregon Bill...
Very nice and polite of u...
Very nice and polite of u...
drgondog
Major
Normally Squids need not apply - but All of you are welcome.
However if you show up at the same time I'll have to switch to smoked ribs and Brisket (Actually I could smoke a rolled Raost).
As it stands E will have to putter about 36 miles to the ranch, how about the rest of you knuckleheads?
No it climbed faster and retained speed in tight turns much better, something which is made quite clear by both Allied German pilots who flew it.
From Me-262 A-1 Pilot's Handbook, put together by US UK test pilots:
"(2) The airplane holds its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional types."
Luftwaffe test pilot, Hans fey:
"The Me-262 will turn much better at high than at low speeds, and due to its clean design, will keep its speed in tight turns much longer than the conventional type aircraft"
And according to flight tests the max climb rate at SL was 19.5 m/s (3,838 ft/min) at ~7,000 kg, the normal take off weight was 6,400 kg and empty weight was 3,900 kg;
Me-262 A-1a Lesitung charts:
Bill as you have just demonstrated it depends entirely on the situation, and you don't know the story of the Allied fighter pilots shot down by the Me-262.
It is highly likely a P-51 seeing a Me-262 in his tail took the fight to the horizontal as-well only to be cut off in the turn and recieve a stream of 30mm HE projectile to his cockpit. Its not hard to cut off a turn and get a deflection shot, even against a better turning a/c, and esp. not if you have fast and flat firing guns.
In short it was by no means a mistake for a Me-262 pilot to engage in the horizontal with a Mustang as long as he knew what he was doing and didn't let speed drop too low. He had to keep the speed up, which he could do by dropping his nose down.
We know that the Me-262 was considerably faster, climbed faster and maintains speed in tight turns considerably better than any piston engined fighter. And we know the approx. Clmax of the wing as-well, so we know that above 450 km/h a Me-262 will black out the average pilot in its tighest turn. Now on top of this we know the Me-262 mostly flew at speeds higher than 600 km/h, at which speed a whole lot of G's could be pulled.
The absolute no no in any of the early jets was however getting into a low speed turning fight as acceleration was very sluggish at slow speeds.
I'm sure you both agree.
