Question on making Rivets

[Robert Porter]

I have several older kits with raised panel lines and large rivets. I have seen many suggestions about filing this detail off and recreating the panel lines by scribing. My question is how to recreate the rivets. I see lots of tools available for creating what I assume would be depressed rivet heads. And I have seen the punch method where you make individual rivets and apply them.

Question is on the tools that are rotary rivet makers how much pressure is needed to actually score the plastic? And wont these types of tools rapidly wear out? And lastly are recessed or depressed rivets realistic? I have seen some photos showing both recessed and raised and even flush. I guess that last question depends more on the actual aircraft in question.

 

[Airframes]

Well, to make rivits, you first need to catch a frog (rivit, rivit) !

But to make rivets, as you have mentioned, they can be done with a rotary tool, sometimes called a pounce wheel, and sold from model outlets as a riveting tool, or they can be individually pressed into the plastic, using a sharp point such as a compass point, held in a pin vice, or a sharpened hypodermic needle.
Punched-out rivets can be used, but these are mainly used on tank models and similar, and are very time consuming and laborious to add.
There are also decal rivets, which look quite convincing, depending on the surface (see Wayne's Meteor build).
The rotary tools, from Trumpter, Tamiya and others, are fairly inexpensive,and are supplied with different sized 'wheels', which are very sharp, and easily mark the rivet pattern on the plastic, but of course the pressure required, which isn't much, will vary depending on the plastic. They work quite well, but have their limitations, such as coming up against a vertical surface, as with riveting a wing, uo to the fuselage, when the last few mm can't be reached, due to the wheel now being in contact with the fuselage.
It's hard to say how long the 'wheels' will last, but as they aren't taking any great pressure, or working on a hard surface, it should be a long time before they need replacing, and it's probably just as cost effective to buy a complete nee tool.
Rivets on model aircraft are a tricky thing, as they can be of various types, and a line of little depressions doesn't really represent real, flush rivets, and certainly not 'dome head' rivets, but is probably better than nothing.
That said, sometimes nothing is better than a shed load of little pin pricks all over a model, as it depends on the type of aircraft, and the colour scheme, whether or not the rivets would show up, even from a few inches away, on the real aircraft.
It's rather like the current 'fad' for highlighting every panel line and jolnt - if a panel line, or rivet, can't be seen from a foot away on the real aircraft, then why the h*ll finish a model which looks like a 1950's tin-plate toy from Hong Kong, with enough lines and spots to make the designers of the London Underground map jealous !!?!!
With some older kits, such as your current build with the old P-38 kit, the rivets, and panel lines, were state of the art at the time it was first released, but with quality, and expected standards today, they look, in the main. like the surface of the Titanic's hull, although some panels are acceptable. In cases like this, it's often better to remove all the panel lines and rivets, and just re-scribe those lines which are known to be prominent, and forget about the rivets.
However, on a similar vintage kit, if it's going to be in bare metal, those rivets which do show on the real aircraft, having been removed, could be replaced by using the pounce wheel tool, sparingly, or if they suit the aircraft type, the decal rivets might do he job well enough.

 

[Robert Porter]

Thanks Terry, I quite agree with the over dose on panel lines I see in models often. Having seen hundreds of war birds over the years I can't think of one case where they actually look like that, unless they are wrecks. Rivit, rivet, dang, that one always catches me, I think I have a mental block on that word for some reason.

I am actually getting fairly good at scribing, but really did not like the pin-prick look of some of the riveting tools I have seen. Again I agree did not look very realistic.

Thanks very much for a well thought out answer I truly appreciate the time and effort!

 

[Crimea_River]

Well, we can get back at Terry's being pedantic about spelling by pointing out that the term is "ponce" wheel, not "pounce" wheel.The original use of these was to transfer a pattern from paper to fabric or leather and the idea was picked up by model makers and, as Terry says, you can buy ones specially made for replicating rivets. Terry was kind enough to give me one as a gift when I met him at Duxford last year, though I've made very limited use of it.

I think there is a real danger of overdoing the effect as Terry so eloquently described, though I think there is merit for the effect in certain places. Most flush rivets are not visible from a reasonable viewing distance, especially on matte camouflaged surfaces. However, once you get into glossy and bare metal finishes, there might be reason to consider replicating the rivets. The recessed rivets are, at best, a simulated effect that is more of an illusion than representation of reality but the effect can be quite striking. I considered riveting my Beaufighter as the surface will be made to look very worn and rivets would add to the effect. However, the time to do it would have been before the parts were glued together as it's much easier to run the wheel over the surfaces when the parts can be laid flat on the table. I may yet do it.

Eduard, in my opinion, has achieved the best surface detailing on their recent Spitfire and Bf109 offerings that utilize recessed rivets in the molds, thereby giving one the surface that many modelers strive to achieve with their after market tools. I think they look great on a weathered aluminum finish like on my recently finished Israeli Spitfire IX:

This effect can readily be achieved using our ponce wheel but it takes time and planning to get the lines properly laid out first.

Ponce wheels are not the only answer. The most rudimentary tool can be a needle in a pin vice and, before I got the wheel. I used this technique to simulate the prominent rivets seen on Mustang flaps, which were all but absent on this 1/48 Hasegawa P-51:

Another point not mentioned yet is that replicating round fasteners requires a different tool since, in reality, the heads are much larger than rivets. These can be made with a sawn-off hypodermic needle that has had the cut edge sharpened to a chisel edge with a file. Clamp the needle in a pin vice, press onto the model lightly, give it a quarter turn and you get a convincing fastener. These ones on my Beaufighter were done that way.

 

[fubar57]

Great info. Isn't there a rivet tool that looks like a small steel ruler? You line it up and use an pointy thang to make the rivets and it can be used to get to those hard to reach places that the wheel can't. When I google rivet tool I get the wheel. I used it on my Wyvern, and it worked pretty well

 

[Wurger]

I have seen rivet makers both offered by manufacturers and "home-made" by modellers. It seems the well-known and easy accessible is the Trumpeter tool that can be found in most shops....

 

[Robert Porter]

Great info. Isn't there a rivet tool that looks like a small steel ruler? You line it up and use an pointy thang to make the rivets and it can be used to get to those hard to reach places that the wheel can't. When I google rivet tool I get the wheel. I used it on my Wyvern, and it worked pretty well

I think you are referring to a stencil. I have seen several that offer various rivet patterns, usually several inches long so you don't have to move the stencil often. I would guess that would be easier to use on surfaces that meet another surface vertically. Hmm lots to think about.

 

[Robert Porter]

I have seen rivet makers both offered by manufacturers and "home-made" by modellers. It seems the well-known and easy accessible is the Trumpeter tool that can be found in most shops....

View attachment 360352

I actually have this one in my wish list, was just kind of holding off until I understood how to use it better. But I see lots of variations on this particular approach.

 

[Robert Porter]

Well, we can get back at Terry's being pedantic about spelling by pointing out that the term is "ponce" wheel, not "pounce" wheel.The original use of these was to transfer a pattern from paper to fabric or leather and the idea was picked up by model makers and, as Terry says, you can buy ones specially made for replicating rivets. Terry was kind enough to give me one as a gift when I met him at Duxford last year, though I've made very limited use of it.

I think there is a real danger of overdoing the effect as Terry so eloquently described, though I think there is merit for the effect in certain places. Most flush rivets are not visible from a reasonable viewing distance, especially on matte camouflaged surfaces. However, once you get into glossy and bare metal finishes, there might be reason to consider replicating the rivets. The recessed rivets are, at best, a simulated effect that is more of an illusion than representation of reality but the effect can be quite striking. I considered riveting my Beaufighter as the surface will be made to look very worn and rivets would add to the effect. However, the time to do it would have been before the parts were glued together as it's much easier to run the wheel over the surfaces when the parts can be laid flat on the table. I may yet do it.

Eduard, in my opinion, has achieved the best surface detailing on their recent Spitfire and Bf109 offerings that utilize recessed rivets in the molds, thereby giving one the surface that many modelers strive to achieve with their after market tools. I think they look great on a weathered aluminum finish like on my recently finished Israeli Spitfire IX:

View attachment 360319

This effect can readily be achieved using our ponce wheel but it takes time and planning to get the lines properly laid out first.

Ponce wheels are not the only answer. The most rudimentary tool can be a needle in a pin vice and, before I got the wheel. I used this technique to simulate the prominent rivets seen on Mustang flaps, which were all but absent on this 1/48 Hasegawa P-51:

View attachment 360321

Another point not mentioned yet is that replicating round fasteners requires a different tool since, in reality, the heads are much larger than rivets. These can be made with a sawn-off hypodermic needle that has had the cut edge sharpened to a chisel edge with a file. Clamp the needle in a pin vice, press onto the model lightly, give it a quarter turn and you get a convincing fastener. These ones on my Beaufighter were done that way.

View attachment 360320

I love the effect you got with the needle for the larger fastener heads. I think for now I am just going to remove or minimize the over sized ones on my kit, and practice the various methods on my older B-17 that I thoroughly messed up. It has become my practice kit!

I have an Eduard kit, a F6F-5 that looks great in terms of panel lines and rivets! I agree the newer kits seem to do a great job of surface detail now.

Because of my shake I think I want to get a couple of stencils to help confine whatever tool I am using to the area I need it at. Otherwise I may tend to make a rather odd looking rivet head!

Thanks for the great info and pictures!

 

[Airframes]

I always seem to get the spelling of the 'rotary impression tool' wrong - pounce wheel, ponce wheel !!
I mentioned, briefly, the use of sharpened hypodermic needles, which, depending on the gauge, can be used to replicate flush rivets, or fasteners and, if two sizes are used, one inside the other, to make a ring inside a ring, they can replicate the 'button' fasteners found of some engine cowlings.
I haven't built an Eduard kit yet, although I have a couple of their Bf110s in the stash, and the rivets look good. The closest I've seen to what look like real rivets and fasteners on a kit, so far, is on the Accurate Miniatures Avenger.

 

[Crimea_River]

This is the one Geo is talking about. I think you can get a 1/48 one as well. The advantage of this one is that it makes the most realistic looking rivets. They are actual, small round indentations. The big disadvantage it that you have to make them one at a time so patience is needed.

1/32 scale Rivet Making Tool Review by Brett Green (MDC 1/32)

 

[Robert Porter]

This is the one Geo is talking about. I think you can get a 1/48 one as well. The advantage of this one is that it makes the most realistic looking rivets. They are actual, small round indentations. The big disadvantage it that you have to make them one at a time so patience is needed.

1/32 scale Rivet Making Tool Review by Brett Green (MDC 1/32)

MDC appears to be out of business, at least their website is. Going to have a look on some other sites that might still have stock.

 

[Airframes]

Yep, I've seen that on their web-site, but didn't realise that the guides were included.
Robert, a few months back, the MDC site hinted at limited production, with the site much reduced in size and format.
However, I looked in there only last week, and it seems to be back up and running, fully illustrated, the way it used to be, with some new products, too.
One of the new products, which I mentioned in Luis's B-24 thread, are .50 cal ammo belts, in 1/48th scale, with the (separate) flexible ammo chutes - ideal for a number of US aircraft.

 

[fubar57]

The tool Wojtek shows is the one I have and the link Andy gave is the one I was thinking of. I clicked on the link given by Hyperscale and the camps McAfee security just blocked me. It's also blocked me from www.britmodeller.com go figure. Here is a link to the MDC tool Ultracast

......and another tool
UMM-USA

 

[Robert Porter]

I can't get to either link Airframes was using, both take me to a 'Domain may be for sale' page with generic modelling links. UMM-USA I can get to just fine so there is where I will go! Thanks guys!

 

[Robert Porter]

The tool Wojtek shows is the one I have and the link Andy gave is the one I was thinking of. I clicked on the link given by Hyperscale and the camps McAfee security just blocked me. It's also blocked me from www.britmodeller.com go figure. Here is a link to the MDC tool Ultracast

......and another tool
UMM-USA

So this arrived today! Thanks for the info! I did buy the 1:48th version as opposed to the 1:32 as that is the scale I most often work with! Now it is time to try them out. However the holes in the handles are too small so will have to drill them out a little or I suppose I could stick them in a pin vise!

 

[fubar57]

Awaiting the results, Robert...

 

[Robert Porter]

Awaiting the results, Robert...

Me too! Dang it now I am out of excuses! Going to put rivits and panel lines back on the engine covers today where I had to sand them all off! Time to look at some pictures.

 

[Crimea_River]

The bars has been raised Robert, and not by us.

 

[Robert Porter]

The bars has been raised Robert, and not by us.

Yep, but if I don't try I fail before I start, so might as well give it a go! After all what are those famous last words, "How hard can it be?"