Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.

[CharlesBronson]

Thanks for the picture, CB

A question: did anybody made a calculation of prices between a SP gun (be it AT or plain howitzer) vs. gun+prime_mover.
My money is on SP piece...

Your guessing is right, actually the germans sought the entire war for an "hybrid" vehicle, the so called "waffenträgers" weapons carries, they want a self propelled piece with the possibility of dismounting the gun and having two separate devices:

A) an normal artillery piece, howitzer or antitank gun plus...

B) an vehicle that ( already separated from its task to carry the gun on its back) could be used as prime mover, supply, etc.

In the end they achiveved nothing despite the several types of waffentragers designed, if you browse the early pages of this topic you will see a tons of them, the only really succesfull were the Wespe, Hummel, and Nashorn, vehicles who didnt have the anoyying gun dismounting requeriment.

Not a German Tank /SPG - but a version based on the Comet chassis - just to show that other countries were developing some similar concepts

Look like a updated sturmgeschutz.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Aditional information on 12,8 cm self propelled Pak vehicles based on VK 30.01 (H).

Originally I thought their usage was quite experimental, however with the new information available is clear that the pair of vehicles were sometimes crucial to defeat soviet local counterattacks supported by heavy armor. The exchange of fire at long range with russian T-34s and KV seems to be the more confortable field of application for the 128 mm gun carriers. His supply of a very effective sprenggranate ( high explosive) ammunition provided excellent bunker busting and anti-infantry capabilities also.

 

[skeeter]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. The Germans lost the war. They started it, and the Allies finished it. Super heavy tanks are fine and awesome and big gunned and, sadly, just too heavy for bridges and such. The Russian T-34 was the best all around design of the war, in particular, the T-34 sporting the 85mm gun aka T-34-85. It wasn't built like a Swiss watch, it was anything but. But it did have a diesel engine, wide tracks, low ground pressure, generally good reliability, and so on. Once the Russians figured out what a radio was and how well the Germans used it to coordinate their attacks, things got better. That and having the Stormavik on their side. The American Sherman was inadequate individually but made up for that by being mass produced and available in quantity. I personally think it was something of a crime to send American troops to war in something the Germans called the "Ronson." Surely we could have done better by our troops, put in a more powerful engine, up armored the son of a gun especially across the frontal arc, and used a better suspension earlier than we did with the M-24 Chaffee and the M-26 Pershing. But history is as history does.

 

[Civettone]

But it did have a diesel engine, wide tracks, low ground pressure, generally good reliability, and so on. Once the Russians figured out what a radio was and how well the Germans used it to coordinate their attacks, things got better. That and having the Stormavik on their side. The American Sherman was inadequate individually but made up for that by being mass produced and available in quantity. I personally think it was something of a crime to send American troops to war in something the Germans called the "Ronson."

Did the Soviets use two-way radios in their tanks? Did the Germans ever call the M4 the 'Ronson'? Or 'Tommy Cooker'? I always have ;y doubts about these nicknames.

Kris

 

[Shortround6]

Did the Soviets use two-way radios in their tanks?
Kris

The soviets certainly planed to have radios in their tanks. Please note the number of photographs of T-26s, BT tanks, T-28s and armoured cars from before the war with frame aerials around the turrets.
As in many other areas, soviet theory, invention and planning was beyond their actual manufacturing capability. The western allies not only supplied the Russians with complete radios but with large quantities of vacuum tubes. As supplies of radios increased the proportion of tanks fitted with radios increased.

 

[zerum]

Thanks to slow pc--

 

[zerum]

The term "Tommy cooker" came to be applied by the late Panther and Tiger German tank crews as a derogatory nickname for the Sherman tank, which on earlier models, mainly due to a combination of obsolete armour, unprotected shells, and the highly flammable fuel, acquired an early reputation for "brewing up" when hit[2].
BBC - History - From the Field Gun to the Tank

 

[Civettone]

Shortround, are you sure these were two-way radios? I know that at least in early years tanks or aircraft were often equiped with receivers with only leaders able to send and receive.

About the Tommy Cooker. I would like to see a single German account or document which mentions this or the Ronson. I think the vast majority of nicknames used by the Germans but in the English language are either post-war or war propaganda.

Also reminds me of the P-38 being called the fork-tailed devil or the US Marines as Devil Dogs or whatever. These names seem to me cases of allies boosting morale by inventing these names to show German fear of them.

Kris

 

[CharlesBronson]

12,2 cm Selbstfahrlafette Lorraine panzerschlepper

A sole example of french LS infantry tractor was converted in self propelled protected gun with a russian 122 howitzer as armament. Aparently it was used only onboard an armored train patrolling the north of France in 1943-44. The panzer was open topped and his armor protection was similar to the series variant with the 150 mm s.I.H 13 "haubitze".

 

[Civettone]

I didnt even know they used armoured trains on the Western Front!


Kris

 

[CharlesBronson]

The vast majority or armored trains of the German army operated in the East in antipartisan duties, however there were an small number of AT in France paired with artillery trains, most of them used panzer IV turrets, Ill post some photos later.

 

[Matt308]

Great post, CB!

 

[vikingBerserker]

Nice CB, armored trains have always fascinated me.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Thank you, thank you, I had found more info in the 122mm panzer, it was attached to the train PZ 32, PZ goes for Panzerzuge= armored train.

 

[HealzDevo]

Amazing. Just when you think you have seen all the crazy German projects someone finds another one to post. Strange some of these look actually practical. Could be why they never went ahead...

 

[CharlesBronson]

Just when you think you have seen all the crazy German projects someone finds another one to post.

Here you got more:

8cm-Raketen Vielfachwerfer aus Gepanzerter Opel Maultier.

A projekt of the SS, the 1942 CZ Brno manufactured "multiple rocket launcher on armored Opel Mule" was armed with a german variant of the russian RS-82 rocket wich impressed the teutonic weapon designers given its high speed.

The launching frame had 24 projectiles with an 360º azimuth and 40º max elevation. Initial velocity of the rockets was 250 mps and his range 5600 m. The Waffen SS asked for 180 of this vehicles to reinforce fully motorized divisions. Albert Speer denied the usage of the Maultier chassis and the series production cancelled. A small batch of launchers on french half-tracks was used instead.

 

[HealzDevo]

Ah, so that is what produced the launcher that we know is it?

 

[CharlesBronson]

Yes, the normal Maultier rocket launcher used 150 and 210 mm projectiles.

 

[Civettone]

I always found it strange to believe that it was on a 3 t truck instead of the bigger MB 4,5 t truck. The Maultier configuration resulted in the payload being reduced to 2 tons. Adding armour and armament must have made the Panzerwerfer very heavy and slow.

And second, I wonder if a similar configuration could not have been made into a cheaper armoured infantry carrier like the SdKfz 251. Infantry and personal equipment (max 1,500 kg) instead of the weapon launchers and the ammo. Put the heavier engine of the SdKfz 251 in it (or the 80 hp Deutz diesel engine). Not as good but a lot cheaper and in quantity to motorize all the Panzergrenadier units.

Kris

 

[CharlesBronson]

Actually there was an rocket launching variant of the Sd.Kfz 251 called sturmpanzerwagen of stupa, the rockets were really short range so the AFV couldnt fullfill artillery roles and was used as close support instead.