Fenyeskard
Recruit
- 1
- Dec 31, 2007
Warfront: turining point
Rare Crazy Panzer Projekts.
- Thread starter CharlesBronson
- Start date
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Warfront: turining point
Also I would like to add - the T-34's revolutionary scientific and calculated use of angled armour to give armour protection for a lighter weight, which at an instant made most of the standard German Infantry anti-tank guns (37mm-50mm) obsolete over night.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Please create a thread for the T-34 if you want to discuss that one. This is about the Panzer.
- Thread starter
- #364
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
After some search I ll found out that profile did not belongs to the k44 but a waffentrager with a 150mm field gun, the profile is wrongly captioned in his original source wich is the book "Panther Variant 1942-45" By Jentz/ Doyle/ Badrocke. Obviously the error is repeated since everybody takes the profile from that.
The 12.8 K44 auf Panther is this, the gun is the same and the Maus and Jagtiger with separate loading ( projectiles first and then the case containing the propellant) The muzzle velocity is 860 m/s and the penetration is ...a lot. In some aspect is like a super heavy Nashorn.
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
It even has a resemblance to the Nashorn in shape. What do other people think?
After some search I ll found out that profile did not belongs to the k44 but a waffentrager with a 150mm field gun, the profile is wrongly captioned in his original source wich is the book "Panther Variant 1942-45" By Jentz/ Doyle/ Badrocke. Obviously the error is repeated since everybody takes the profile from that.
The 12.8 K44 auf Panther is this, the gun is the same and the Maus and Jagtiger with separate loading ( projectiles first and then the case containing the propellant) The muzzle velocity is 860 m/s and the penetration is ...a lot. In some aspect is like a super heavy Nashorn.
Welcome back Charles!
- Thread starter
- #367
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thanks 8)
Hello CharlesBronsen,
A 12.8 cm gun would not feature a muzzle brake. Are there any pictures that I might not have seen in regards to a Jagdtiger or Maus or E100 that would depict a 12.8 with a muzzle brake?
So IMO this picture/drawing does not show a 12.8cm.
Regards
Kruska
A 12.8 cm gun would not feature a muzzle brake. Are there any pictures that I might not have seen in regards to a Jagdtiger or Maus or E100 that would depict a 12.8 with a muzzle brake?
So IMO this picture/drawing does not show a 12.8cm.
Regards
Kruska
- Thread starter
- #369
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Say who ? you ?, and you are who ? Baurat Kniekampf maybe?
The projects of Reinmetall Borsig and Krupp for a tank hunter/self propelled howitzer using Panther elements did featured mundungbremse, no matter 105, 150 or 128 mm guns.
And just for the fun check this:
Self Propelled artillery on Panther Chassis, Rheinmetall Borsig proposals.
The first Rheinmetall attemp to fullfill a requeriment for a self propelled howitzers and cannons that could be dismounted come out in July 1942 , time in wich the Panther was merelya prototype.
The WaPrüf 4 showed little interest in the series design because the always short supply of Panther for other than main battle tank use.
However Rheimetall was undeterred and continue to produce design drawings until december 1944, some of them using completely new weapons and components, the most prominent of that was a big multichamber muzzle brake in the main guns.
Some examples :
12,8 cm K43 slf, january 1943. 128mm dual purpose gun in a high elevation mount and dismountable shield.
12,8 cm Skorpion. april 1943, this "poisonous" design was one for a direct support/tank killer 128 mm self propelled gun. The gun had a separated charge projectile with a muzzle speed of 850 mps.
15 cm schweres Feld Haubitze Panther Bauteilen, 150 mm heavy howitzer april 1943. Not really a Panther chassis but a longer vehicle using several components of the Pz V.
This was clearly a "waffenträger", the "casemate" shield and gun was designed to used mostly from the ground, the mechanic elements to dismount the gun ( jacks and winch) was carried in the rear and aft of the vehicle.
All profile drawings by Hillary L. Doyle ( god bless him)
As you might note my dear Krusty the projekts in drawing boards were independient of any design used in actual series vehicles.
No wise guy, I am someone who isn't into Nazi fantasy projects and drawings, so I will leave you to yourself with great pleasure.
Regards
Kruska
- Thread starter
- #371
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Sorry Krusty but again you had showed that you dont know anything ( I was tempted to wrote that you dont know sh...t but I dont like to sound unpolite) about this topic ( wich is a little sad considering that you are german).
The drawings and profiles are extracted from this book, and those are not my "fantasy" nor the author invention :
Definately, if you dont participate anymore in this topic I will feel a great pleasure, and probably someother too.8)
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
I would like to know whether you know of whether there are any good sites with any other variant tanks listed. I really enjoy seeing these variants which are very interesting and unusual and though they didn't reach service are interesting to speculate on what their impact might have been.
genkideskan
Airman 1st Class
The currently best books are written by
Waldemar Trojca
and
Walter Spielberger
both are available in english -
Amazon.com: trojca
Amazon.com: spielberger
Waldemar Trojca
and
Walter Spielberger
both are available in english -
Amazon.com: trojca
Amazon.com: spielberger
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
These are all figments of the imagination. Someone draws it but that does not mean it was feasable. There never was the slightest chance they would be built and being paper panzers you never hear about the drawbacks.
As for 12.8 cm guns with a muzzle brake the only one was the dual field gun/Pak version made in very limited numbers at the wars end,
The Jagdtiger used the 12.8cm Panzerjagerkanone 44 (L/55), also known as the Pak 80. Some confusion over the name of the weapon stems from the fact that the name was changed in mid-1944 from Pak 44 to Pak 80, causing confusion in many reference works. So, references will be found where the the gun is called either name, in official documents dated from late 1944 and on.
The performance of this weapon was phenomenal -- the muzzle velocity for the AP round is said to have been 920m/sec and for the HE round 750m/sec. With a range for the AP of well over 4000 meters, it can generally be said that if the gunner could clearly see a target, he could usually hit it. The gun was actually a further development of the 12.8cm Kanone 44 (towed anti-tank gun), which was a competitive effort between both Rheinmettal-Borsig and Krupp, each producing a similar tube and breech, but mounted on very different-looking mobile platforms. The gun was 55 calibers long, but unlike the towed version the model mounted in the Jagdtiger, it did not have a muzzle break. Although the prototypes of the towed Kanone 44 were completed and delivered, there were no towed versions of this gun put into series production; the only weapons produced and actively used diring World War Two were mounted inside the Jagdtiger.
PzKpfw VI TIGER - Variations
There are 2 Panzertracts Booklets (20-1 20-2) on paper panzers but the Speilberger Tiger/Panther books (German or English) have a lot of data on these flights of fancy
As for 12.8 cm guns with a muzzle brake the only one was the dual field gun/Pak version made in very limited numbers at the wars end,
The Jagdtiger used the 12.8cm Panzerjagerkanone 44 (L/55), also known as the Pak 80. Some confusion over the name of the weapon stems from the fact that the name was changed in mid-1944 from Pak 44 to Pak 80, causing confusion in many reference works. So, references will be found where the the gun is called either name, in official documents dated from late 1944 and on.
The performance of this weapon was phenomenal -- the muzzle velocity for the AP round is said to have been 920m/sec and for the HE round 750m/sec. With a range for the AP of well over 4000 meters, it can generally be said that if the gunner could clearly see a target, he could usually hit it. The gun was actually a further development of the 12.8cm Kanone 44 (towed anti-tank gun), which was a competitive effort between both Rheinmettal-Borsig and Krupp, each producing a similar tube and breech, but mounted on very different-looking mobile platforms. The gun was 55 calibers long, but unlike the towed version the model mounted in the Jagdtiger, it did not have a muzzle break. Although the prototypes of the towed Kanone 44 were completed and delivered, there were no towed versions of this gun put into series production; the only weapons produced and actively used diring World War Two were mounted inside the Jagdtiger.
PzKpfw VI TIGER - Variations
There are 2 Panzertracts Booklets (20-1 20-2) on paper panzers but the Speilberger Tiger/Panther books (German or English) have a lot of data on these flights of fancy
- Thread starter
- #375
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Your data is correct, but again, the guns used or projected for this kind of panzer designs were not nessesarily the same as in series vehicles.
28 cm Duka aus Panther-Fahrgestellen langholzprincip:
Do you think that you had seen all ? well, you dont... what about this ?
The 28cm Duka aus Panther Langholzprincip was the granfather of all the german Waffenträgers, it comprised 2 ausf G chassis carring a 280 mm long range gun. The weapon was downloaded to the ground in order to fire. After that the panther chassis could disengage and used as Munitionspanzers.
Not only that, also being a dusenkanone the Krupp 28 cm piece had a rear gas scape nozzle in order to reduce the recoil...imagine this firing in dusty terrain? a year of waiting until the smoke cloud disapear...
Hello m kenny,
Hmm.. 12.8 dual field gun sounds very interesting, would you have some datas or photos for me, thanks
Regards
Kruska
genkideskan
Airman 1st Class
Here is a model ...
Wettringer-Modellbauforum | Bauberichte | Im Bau: 12,8cm Pak 44 Kruppversion
a version using the 8,8cm Pak exist too.
12,8 cm Kanone 81/3 (1/35)
Wettringer-Modellbauforum | Bauberichte | Im Bau: 12,8cm Pak 44 Kruppversion
a version using the 8,8cm Pak exist too.
12,8 cm Kanone 81/3 (1/35)
genkideskan
Airman 1st Class
No, he didnt refer to the 12,8cm Flak - the Pak is well known and a Googel search will bring you informations.
The guns where made in numbers of 3 for testshoots. The idea was to make them mobile on available carriages and to do this quick. So the project drawings show mostly the PAK guns with muzzle brakes.
The Krupp mounts needs a long time to buildt, so the gun was simply put into an available 8,8 Pak mount with improved raised elevation for multi pupose use.
The guns where made in numbers of 3 for testshoots. The idea was to make them mobile on available carriages and to do this quick. So the project drawings show mostly the PAK guns with muzzle brakes.
The Krupp mounts needs a long time to buildt, so the gun was simply put into an available 8,8 Pak mount with improved raised elevation for multi pupose use.
