REBUILDING A HAWKER TYPHOON TO FLYING STATUS

[tomo pauk]

That the radial was the future was acutely obvious even in 1939 when the R-2800 was producing a sturdy 2,000hp.

Was it?

British thinking was hijacked by the success of inline engines in the Schnieder Trophy races - it simply never occurred to the dunderheads at the Air Ministry that radials would and could simply overcome drag by becoming much more powerful than contemporary 'streamlined' inline engines. So all fighters were to be inline because a law.

What law was that?

And lets not forget Air Marshal Freeman, RAF head of procurement - a smart man, but fixated on inline engines and utterly hated the very idea of a radial engined fighter.

Source for Freeman hating the idea of radial-engined fighter?

 

[WAFU]

Was it?

Very much, Both P&W and BMW were running 2,000hp class radials in 1939 - at a time when 1,200hp was very good going for an inline

 

[tomo pauk]

Very much, Both P&W and BMW were running 2,000hp class radials in 1939 - at a time when 1,200hp was very good going for an inline

Source(s) for P&W and BMW running 2000 HP radials in 1939?

 

[WAFU]

Air Marshal Wilfrid Freeman killed off the Centaurus Tornado despite its excellent performance and potential when he was in charge of RAF procurement.
Once he was retired to the MAP at the end of 1942, his dead hand on radial fighters was lifted..

 

[pbehn]

Two of the three US fighters that served as escorts in Europe had water cooled V engines, the short ranged type had an air cooled radial. Powerful US radials in the P-47 didnt start in active service until March 1943, why was there so much foot dragging in USA about this obvious superiority?

 

[pbehn]

Air Marshal Wilfrid Freeman killed off the Centaurus Tornado despite its excellent performance and potential when he was in charge of RAF procurement.
Once he was retired to the MAP at the end of 1942, his dead hand on radial fighters was lifted..

The Tornado had a Vulture engine, the Centaurus was put in the Tempest Mk II prototype the Sabre was put in the Tempest I and V prototypes. Since the Centaurus powered the late war Tempest II and post war Sea Fury how was it "killed off"?

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Air Marshal Wilfrid Freeman killed off the Centaurus Tornado despite its excellent performance and potential when he was in charge of RAF procurement.
Once he was retired to the MAP at the end of 1942, his dead hand on radial fighters was lifted..

I'd be delighted to know the date when he decided all that as I have most of his papers here and I can dig out the letter

 

[GrauGeist]

Very much, Both P&W and BMW were running 2,000hp class radials in 1939 - at a time when 1,200hp was very good going for an inline

Nope - the first R-2800 (dash one) was producing 1,500hp in 1939, the dash five was producing 1,850hp.

It would be the R-2800-8, which the US Navy received in '41, that were capable of 2,000hp.

As far as the BMW801 goes, only one variant of the engine, the 801F, produced 2,000hp (it actually tested at a peak of 2,367hp) but never reached production.

 

[don4331]

Graham White's R-2800 book:

R-2800 Engine No. 1 delivered to Wright field 1/July/'39 1,650hp on 100 octane fuel
1st production engine 25/Mar/'40

Issue with oil retention is resolved, power increased to 1,850hp

1st production B series 28/Aug/'40
The earliest date I can find for 2k hp R-2800 - 14/Nov/'40 2k hp/2700rpm/1k'

R-2800 was great engine and developed for when USA needed it in '42, but not '39

To put it in perspective Merlin 32 was making 1,640hp/3k rpm/2k'

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Regarding the Vulture, from Ernest Hives personal papers, RR archives. Date 17th Nov 1942, Hives`s notes before a scheduled meeting with Freeman, which probably occurred later that day.

This is obviously not an unbiased view, but it is I think all things considered probably quite close to the reality of the situation, Hives was being a bit defensive with claiming it was a good engine the problems were manifold, but the statement that they had not the resources to develop BOTH types to the required level is undoubtedly absolutely accurate.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Oh I was bored and decided to find the letter myself, amusingly it disagrees entirely with the accusation that Freeman wanted to cancel anything to do with the Centaurus.
VCAS = Vice Chief of Air Staff
Date = 21st April 1942
5th Nov 1940 > 19th Oct 1942: Sir Wilfrid Freeman was VCAS

"Air Marshal Wilfrid Freeman killed off the Centaurus Tornado despite its excellent performance and potential when he was in charge of RAF procurement.
Once he was retired to the MAP at the end of 1942, his dead hand on radial fighters was lifted.."

Which terrible books have you been reading?

Freeman actually argued FOR more Centaurus production, specifically to give more for Centaurus Tornados !

 

[AMCKen]

I'd like to hear it too. This recording from the 1940s leaves a bit to be desired.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo0Lv1S3RfQ

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Another letter showing that the Typhoon-Centaurus program development was certainly not stopped for the duration of Freemans time as VCAS.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Finally, this is a snippet of the history of the Centaurus actually written by the Bristol Firm themselves. The reasons for the lull in development were purely the exigencies of an active war.

From "A Summary of Technical Development During The War" - Aero Engine Division, Bristol Aeroplane Co., Filton House, Bristol. (sadly devoid of any date, but probably 1946/47)

 

[fannum]

And here it is, pics taken on wednesday


View attachment 713304View attachment 713305View attachment 713306

Thank you. Looks so much better displayed than on my last visit in the '90s. It would be nice for we Yanks to see one, but this is in the right place.

We're over run with Sea Furies, but most have wrong engines and have been bastardized beyond recognition. An impressive craft, but its main combat seems to have been the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

 

[fannum]

I tracked down my friend, the late David Ince who flew 150 sorties in the Typhoon and did some development.

David Ince - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He had sent me his book which combined and contrasted his flying career, from Typhoons to being a championship level sailplane pilot.

• Combat and competition. Newton Publishers, 1992. ISBN 1872308325

I discovered he had also written another later, apparently entirely focused on WWII experiences.

• Brotherhood of the skies: Wartime experiences of a gunnery officer and Typhoon pilot. Grub Street, 2010. ISBN 978-1906502645

He's an excellent writer and was a highly demanded speaker on many subjects. The advantage is that he writes from experience with smoothness and style missing from the 'as told to' or historically researched books. I've ordered the BOTS book, and feel Tiffie researchers would consider it a must. Probably will have to buy from the UK bookstores, but there is a Kindle edition.
His CAC account brooked no false emotions, and he obviously considered the Typhoon to be a necessary tool, not an item of reverence. Note that 1 in 3 of the pilots did not survive their Typhoon careers. Ince spoke wistfully about the Typhoon, and once asked if he'd like to fly one if restored, he looked askance and asked, "Why?"
I wish the restorers well, but echo David's answer.
Remember that the Typhoon was rushed into service as a foil against the Fw190, and suffered from being incompletely developed. Still, it proved versatile despite its quirks and flaws.

 

[Big Jake]

Many years ago I read "The Big Show" by Pierre Clostermann who was a Typhoon pilot operating from forward bases in France during the fall and winter of 1944. As I recall he loved the airplane however what I remember most is his telling how during the bitter cold nights, mechanics sat in the cockpits and kept the Sabre engines running all night to keep them from freezing so that they could be ready at dawn!

 

[z42]

Many years ago I read "The Big Show" by Pierre Clostermann who was a Typhoon pilot operating from forward bases in France during the fall and winter of 1944. As I recall he loved the airplane however what I remember most is his telling how during the bitter cold nights, mechanics sat in the cockpits and kept the Sabre engines running all night to keep them from freezing so that they could be ready at dawn!

That was one of my favorite books growing up. I actually read two versions of it, first a shortened 'boyhood adventure' kind of version with some of the more tragic and gory parts cut out, and later the 'real thing'. That being said, Clostermann flew the Tempest, not the Typhoon (he only apparently had a few training flights in Typhoons as part of his conversion from Spitfire to Tempest). But yes, he wrote that the mechanics did warm up the Sabres every few hours during the winter nights, apparently the oil used for lubricating the sleeves thickened to the point the engine would outright seize if it was cold started in freezing temps.

 

[EwenS]

There were other methods of warming the Sabre engines through in 1944/45

ROYAL AIR FORCE: 2ND TACTICAL AIR FORCE, 1943-1945.

Ground crew of No. 3208 Servicing Commando, insert collapsible tubes from a pre-heating van into the air intake and radiator of a Hawker Typhoon Mark IB in the snow at B58/Melsbroek, Belgium. The tubes fed hot air into the Napier Sabre engines, which were notoriously difficult to start in wintry...

www.iwm.org.uk

 

[fannum]

Not meaning to brag, but I had the privilege to meet both Ince and Closterman, and talk to each about the Typhoon and Tempest respectively. Both agreed they were very different aircraft, albeit coming from the same roots. The Tempest benefitted from a lot of lessons learned from Typhoon shortcomings.
As an aside, Closterman was involved with politics all his life, and despite being a highly proficient pilot, he was turned down by the pre-war politically cloistered French Armee d' la Air. He was readily accepted by the RAF after France surrendered, although Free French politics kept him as a sergeant pilot for years, only begrudgedly commissioning him as Lieutenant late in the war, but not beyond. The RAF had no such compunctions, and assigned him as a Wing Commander.