Rifles and Machineguns of WW2 (1 Viewer)

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An interesting article in the latest "American Rifleman." outlines the development of the Garand rifle and it's competition, the Pederson. At one point, the Garand was to be chambered for the 276 Pederson, an intermediate powered catridge, (a 140 or 150 grain bullet at around 2400 fps) It appears that General MacArthur put the quietus on that so the Garand went back to the 3006 Springfield. If the 276 Pederson had been adopted, the first true assault rifle might have been not far behind and the 223 Remington might have never happened.
 
Hi Soren,

If you are talking about changing the momentum of a 180 pound dead weight, then obviously no handgun or shoulder fired rifle or shotgun will do it (12 gauge included). Even a small cannon shell may not transfer enough momentum to the target because the shell would likely pass through the target. I believe what we are discussing is the best handgun for causing enough structural damage, hydrostatic shock, neural disruption, overpressure, embarrassment, or whatever to stop an average person from doing whatever they are doing that requires that you shoot them to begin with.

As such, a Taser firing some little bitty needles with a fair amount of electric charge to be applied doesn't have enough momentum to argue about, but the effect is generally quite reliable. A Laser that burns a two inch hole through a person's chest also doesn't have momentum enough to discuss, but would also work well enough. Same goes for overpressure from a Nuke or Fuel-Air bomb. No momentum. Instant incapacitation. If the victim were running toward you, their momentum would not change, but they would probably fall down and no longer be an issue.

I personally am not dogmatic about a particular caliber or firearm, but I do believe some handguns are considerably more reliable "Man-Stoppers" than others. I don't think there really is a whole lot of difference between a 9 mm and a .45 ACP but I'll leave that to the experts who have the statistics. As far as I'm concerned, the endless discussion about the momentum of the .45 ACP versus the energy of a 9mm or .357 is something to sell magazines to folks who like to read the same thing over and over again.

- Ivan.
 
Perhaps there is a round in the chamber??? Naaah, SMGs fire from an open bolt. Guess that Ivan doesn't know the gun is empty.

Better yet, perhaps that Ivan is fairly smart and Fritz is stupid. Ivan knows that another Fritz is taking a picture, and probably yet another Fritz has a gun here. Ivan is probably the only one of his bunch left alive.

- Ivan.
 
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Some interesting photos of the MG 34 in use by the Wehrmacht:

- As AAA weapon, France 1943

- In Bunker barbette, Norway 1943

- Zwilling AAA emplacements Italy 1943

- Used by the "Freies Indien" in the atlantic wall, 1944.
 

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I am with Soren - a 12 gauge is a pretty potent weapon with a slug in it!
I am not sure about other countries but in the UK you need a different licence for a SLUG than any other shot gun round. A slug means you need a FIREARMS licence but any other neeeds a shotgun licence. The difference is you need to show a reason for having a firearms licence not just because you want one! I do believe it will get harder to get both in the future!
 
Slugs are illegal in many countries, and they are often refered to as the Brenneke Ideal.
 
Ah, Brenneke Ideal...
Favorite of many Croatian hunters, vs. wild boars of course.

Re. banned slugs: the simple repeating hunting rifle is as deadly as shotgun with slug, yet those are allowed
 
The original 10mm load was a 200 grain bullet at 1,200fps from a 5" barrel. A 200 grain 10mm bullet has greater sectional density than a 230 grain .45ACP bullet and the 10mm is flatter shooting and penetrates deeper where the bullets are of equal construction.

The run of the mill retail stuff on the market today, unlike the .45ACP offerings, is loaded well below the SAAMI pressure spec established for the 10mm (37,500psi). The .45ACP is 21,000psi.

Double Tap ammunition company sells 10mm ammo that is much hotter yet still within SAAMI specs. One of their loads features a 200 grain bullet at 1,300fps which develops 750fpe. (This is chrono'd out of a Glock 20 with a 4.6" barrel as opposed to .45ACP loads which are chrono'd out of 5" barrels) A hot .45ACP driving a 200 grain bullet, even at a +P pressure level of 23,000psi will only make 1,100fps and that's out of a 5" tube.

I have extensive experience with both the .45ACP and 10mm and I will tell you that the 10mm is more lethal and maintains lethality at a greater range than the .45ACP. For wild pig, the consensus of hunters (including myself) is that the 10mm is the minimum handgun to reliably anchor what can be dangerous beasts at handgun ranges. There is a reason why no one uses the .45ACP to hunt pig even though many more hunters own .45's than 10mm's. The 10mm also offers better barrier penetration.


Below is a picture of my Glock 20 SF with Lone Wolf 5" Tactical Match barrel. (A stock barrel is 4.6" so the 5" tube sticks out a bit.) With 15 rounds in the clip, it is my go to handgun in case of zombies.




Here's an interesting demonstration of a 10mm with 180 grain bullet at 1,350fps:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n1waGa4sLM
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The video at the beginning of this thread shows an M2 being fired. I fired one of those at Fort Hood in 60 or 61 and it was quite an experience. We had only cotton for our ears in those days and it was loud. I just finished a historical novel based on the memoirs of a Brit in WW2 in North Africa. The title is "Killing Rommel" by Pressfield and I highly recommend it. The story is about a mission planned for the SAS and LRDG to attempt to kill Rommel. As we all know, the mission failed but it was highly interesting to read about the vehicles used and the weapons carried. To begin with, there was a high degree of using the opposites sides weapons and vehicles, particularly by the Germans. The British lost many tanks because of mechanical problems and the Germans salvaged them and used them as well as many trucks. The LRDG favored a truck called the 41-42 Chevrolet thirty hundred weight, which was a right hand drive, made in Canada, one and a half ton Chevrolet. These were two wheel drive,(for better gas mileage) and were field modified for desert use. They mounted various combinations of Twin Vickers with drum magazines, Maxims, M2 Brownings and the Italian Breda 20 mm if they could get them. The individual weapons were Enfield 303, of course, Thompson guns, all types of handguns and sometimes German and Italian weapons. They also used Willy Jeeps when they could get them with auto weapons mounted on them.
 
Davidicus, discussions for modern weapons should by perchance be within the 'Guns We Own' thread..
Nice rare-ish pics there (as always) Stug and from from great contributers

Can I ask if the MG15 (or is it the MG17) is a MG34 that has a removed and a different triggering group/system for pneumatic cocking/decocking (the latter sounds painful...) and the interupted controlled electical firing (either by solonoid servo operated trigger /or 'hotwire' precursor cap ignition)?
 
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Tracer ammunition being fired from Bren guns over the heads of troops crossing a lake in collapsible boats, during a night exercise at Llanberis in Wales, 7 May 1942.



The King inspects an airborne jeep fitted with a Vickers machine-gun during a visit to airborne forces in Southern Command, 21 May 1942. With him is Major-General Frederick 'Boy' Browning, GOC 1st Airborne Division. A Sten SMG is also
on the jeep.
 
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