SBD Dauntless Discussion Group

[plan_D]

He wasn't the gunner though, he was the pilot and he was on his own.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

He could have used the dive flaps to slow down to good effect but the end result would him being at a slow speed and low energy state.

Forget a low energy state, have you ever turned in an aircraft with full flaps?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And in the course of an action where there's enemy planes about, do you always expect someone to look down at his watch and take out a pencil and note the time?
- Actaually yes. All pilots were asked to give the best estimate of time of events as it happened. The pilots actually had clocks in the cockpit for them to look at from time to time. If the AAF could do it, the surface ships do it (when they were shooting at enemy planes and ships) then I think it would be resonable for the naval Air Arm to request the same things from their pilots.

If everytime my aircraft had missle fired at it in Iraq me or the rest of the crew had checked out watches or looked at the 2 clocks on the instrument panels to see what time we were engaged I would not be typing right now. Trust me in the middle of a deadly situation or combat the last thing you think about is the time.

 

[evangilder]

Yep, That is the truth there. Can you imagine someone yelling "timeout" so that they could put down their weapon, pull out their trusty notebook and pencil to mark then time? Then call "okay, resume killing"? Not going to happen. The last thing on your mind when you are in the middle of bad guys is what time it is.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Trust me I know that feeling. A typical engagement went by so quick that you did not even have time to shit in your flight suit. Thankgod I did not have to experience that many times.

 

[evangilder]

Yep, and the concept of time is completely skewed when under fire. Minutes turn to hours quickly in that situation. I know that happened to me a few times. It seemed like hours, but with the amount of firing going on, we would have needed a mountain of ammo to go on for hours. So at that point its pretty much a guess.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap 1 minute seems like an hour. An 8 hour mission over Iraq felt like 1 hour to me.

 

[syscom3]

Theres a vast difference between saying you had an event happening approx. around a specific time and then saying you had a 30 minute window when it happened.

Those planes only had endurance really measured in minutes and the pilots were looking at the clock from time to time.

Plus part of their navigation was decided upon specific times (minutes from ship, minutes from rally point, etc.)

If you look at the list he provided, there were exact times specified on some of the claims. So that proves it was done.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeah it was looked at, after the fact so you did not know the exact time. Trust me I have been in the situation. Not dogfighting ofcourse but under fire while flying and the clock was the last thing on my mind.

 

[evangilder]

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. There may have been guys that put their best estimate on the time, while others gave a range. It doesn't prove or disprove anything. Unless you personally know the person making the claim and the way that he did his time marks, there is no way to know for sure.

 

[trackend]

I find this info really interesting guys If you go back in history from ancient times to the current state of affairs ask any guy who has been in a scrap and although the technology changes the feelings and emotions that the participants have remain almost unchanged including how long an action or event took.

 

[syscom3]

He could have used the dive flaps to slow down to good effect but the end result would him being at a slow speed and low energy state.

Forget a low energy state, have you ever turned in an aircraft with full flaps?

Actually I have. And fact is when the flaps go down, you slow down. Slow speed means a low energy level. Then the SBD had better speed up quite quick or its doomed. Only way to do that is to dive downward which means its not heading into the fighters.

 

[syscom3]

He wasn't the gunner though, he was the pilot and he was on his own.

There we go, hes all alone and claims three zero's! I wonder if he was telling tall tales at the officers club and someone took him at his word....
"and there I was....."

8)

 

[lesofprimus]

No his gunner was with him... Ur confusing 2 seperate incidents...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

He could have used the dive flaps to slow down to good effect but the end result would him being at a slow speed and low energy state.

Forget a low energy state, have you ever turned in an aircraft with full flaps?

Actually I have. And fact is when the flaps go down, you slow down. Slow speed means a low energy level. Then the SBD had better speed up quite quick or its doomed. Only way to do that is to dive downward which means its not heading into the fighters.

It also means you're increasing wing area and you turn tighter - look at those dive flaps on the SBD. I'd bet dollars to donuts that with flaps deployed the SBD could easily turn inside a Zero. As the flaps were perforated(also used as dive brakes), I would also guess there were no limitations on speed deployed.....

 

[lesofprimus]

ACtually what Swede did was he used a zoom climb, flaps out and pulled a bunch of G's, came around and dove slightly, full throttle, and on each successive pass, peppered each of the 3 Zeros with a bunch of rounds... Each one burst into flames, the 3rd Zero also had his wing ripped off.....

U see, Swede was a hell of a gunner and taught gunnery to new pilots... He sustained no damage to his craft in this engagement, although his windscreen was covered with oil from the 2nd Zero...

 

[syscom3]

Did anyone witness this?

And does anyone have turn data for the SBD with flaps down?

Also, wasnt it fowler flaps that increased wing area? I thought the SBD flaps were the more traditional types that changed the shape of the wing, not wing area.

 

[lesofprimus]

His gunner witnessed all 3, his wingman saw 2 and confirmed another large splash for the 3rd...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

ACtually what Swede did was he used a zoom climb, flaps out and pulled a bunch of G's, came around and dove slightly, full throttle, and on each successive pass, peppered each of the 3 Zeros with a bunch of rounds... Each one burst into flames, the 3rd Zero also had his wing ripped off.....

U see, Swede was a hell of a gunner and taught gunnery to new pilots... He sustained no damage to his craft in this engagement, although his windscreen was covered with oil from the 2nd Zero...

Maybe mentioned earlier, I think his gunner would of confirmed the kills as well. I do know that majority of SDB gunners were ARMs (Aviation Radioman). It would seem that once the battle was over and the crew gained their composure, Swede's gunner would of been on the radio immediately, either on frequency to the carrier or attempting to communicate with the other aircraft in his flight. I'm sure flaming 3 Zeros might of been a topic of discussion......

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Also, wasnt it fowler flaps that increased wing area?.

All flaps increase wing area when deployed - fowler, split, zap, or slat.....