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- #21
elmilitaro
Senior Airman
Really?
segregated units not getting enough credit
- Thread starter elmilitaro
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the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
i was mostly talking about numbers of eithnic minorities in each service, last i heard the RAF had the fewest......
Nonskimmer
Captain
That doesn't necessarily mean racism. Maybe said minorities just have little interest in the Air Force. Man, one thing that bugs the hell out of me are these damn bureaucrats who figure that racial/gender representation should take precedence over operations. What a crock! 
Ball Turret Gunner
Airman 1st Class
Hi Flyboy, your quite welcome. )
Hi R. Leonard, good, I am glad that we both knew Capt Beach. I did not know him as well as you apparently did but, the time I met him at an autograph signing in California some 23 years ago was one I will never forget. Sorry to say that I have no clue who George Street is. Was he someone who served with Capt Beach at some point?
About the Navy Cross. I am only stating as my own opinion that I do believe that Doris Miller's award should be up-graded. It is not based on anyhting else other than what I do know about him. Also, your info on him does not match what I have on him which says that he was killed when his ship was torpedoed in Ironbottom Sound -- which is off of Guadalcanal.
No offense taken. I was only naming a few who I have had much contact with over the years. In all of an approximate 7,320 Knights Cross Recipients, I have either personally corresponded and met with -- or simply just corresponded with. All the names listed in the last post did cover the four services making up the Wehrmacht. I cannot fault you at all for having your main interest dealing with the action in the P.T.O. I got my start there many years ago, but I shifted to the E.T.O, Italian, North African and Eastern Front theaters.)
Thank you for the extra info on where he served. I will make it a point to do more research on this as soon as time permits.
Best regards--BTG
)Hi R. Leonard, good, I am glad that we both knew Capt Beach. I did not know him as well as you apparently did but, the time I met him at an autograph signing in California some 23 years ago was one I will never forget. Sorry to say that I have no clue who George Street is. Was he someone who served with Capt Beach at some point?
About the Navy Cross. I am only stating as my own opinion that I do believe that Doris Miller's award should be up-graded. It is not based on anyhting else other than what I do know about him. Also, your info on him does not match what I have on him which says that he was killed when his ship was torpedoed in Ironbottom Sound -- which is off of Guadalcanal.
No offense taken. I was only naming a few who I have had much contact with over the years. In all of an approximate 7,320 Knights Cross Recipients, I have either personally corresponded and met with -- or simply just corresponded with. All the names listed in the last post did cover the four services making up the Wehrmacht. I cannot fault you at all for having your main interest dealing with the action in the P.T.O. I got my start there many years ago, but I shifted to the E.T.O, Italian, North African and Eastern Front theaters.
)Thank you for the extra info on where he served. I will make it a point to do more research on this as soon as time permits.
Best regards--BTG
Yes, lanc, just because the RAF has less ethnics doesn't mean it's racist or not adapting to change. I hate the policy in the Police that states, at the moment, that ethnic applicants will have priority over whites because we want an diverse Police force - even if the white applicant is a million times better, they'll take the ethnic . Thank god our military doesn't do that yet ... I don't think it does at least. Plus , a lot of our Muslim citizens wouldn't want to join the army to defend the country, they'd rather blow it up.
Nonskimmer
Captain
The RCMP has gone that way over the years too. They were once one of, if not the, premier police forces in the world. They've lowered standards for minorities and females over the years in order to fill certain recruiting quotas. Christ Almighty!
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
A minor point . . . my information is US Navy information. I'd think they would know where they lost one of their carriers, even if only to within a 10 mile radius. 02-54N, 172-30E (Liscome Bay sinking) is a fair piece from 09-12S, 159-46E (about the center of Iron Bottom Sound), roughly 1054 nautical miles. The site I pointed to in an earlier post was the official USN history site.
Also on George Street:
http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/citations_living/ii_n_street.html
R
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
R Leonard said:
Rich,
Your information is appreciated. I have seen the same info BTG saw, in fact until you corrected us, thats all I have seen and that includes publications that included Doris in any way.
wmaxt
What about the most-decorated Marine in history, Lt. General Lewis "Chesty" Puller who won FIVE Navy Crosses. Many argue (including myself) that a couple of his Navy Cross awards merit the Medal of Honor. However, I believe that medals should remain as they were awarded at that time, even if it appears suspicious 20, 30, 40, 50 years later.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Ive thought that the MOH was to be earned by personal valor under enemy fire that was above and beyond the call of duty. Being a great general brings upon itself medals and honors. But thats a different case than from actually being shot at.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
Lewis B Puller:
First Navy Cross in Nicaragua in 1930 as 1st Lieutenant, citation:
"The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, for distinguished service in the line of his professional while commanding a Nicaraguan National Guard patrol. First Lieutenant Lewis B. Puller, United States Marine Corps, successfully led his forces into five successful engagements against superior numbers of armed bandit forces; namely, at LaVirgen on 16 February 1930, at Los Cedros on 6 June 1930, at Moncotal on 22 July 1930, at Guapinol on 25 July 1930, and at Malacate on 19 August 1930, with the result that the bandits were in each engagement completely routed with losses of nine killed and many wounded. By his intelligent and forceful leadership without thought of his own personal safety, by great physical exertion and by suffering many hardships, Lieutenant Puller surmounted all obstacles and dealt five successive and severe blows against organized banditry in the Republic of Nicaragua."
Second Navy Cross in Nicaragua in 1932 as 1st Lieutenant, Citation:
"The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, for exceptionally meritorious service in a duty of great responsibility while in command of a Guardia Patrol from 20 September to 1 October 1932. Lieutenant Puller and his command of forty Guardia and Gunnery Sergeant William A. Lee, United States Marine Corps, serving as a First Lieutenant in the Guardia, penetrated the isolated mountainous bandit territory for a distance of from eighty to one hundred miles north of Jinotega, his nearest base. This patrol was ambushed on 26 September 1932, at a point northeast of Mount Kilambe by an insurgent force of one hundred fifty in a well-prepared position armed with not less than seven automatic weapons and various classes of small arms and well-supplied with ammunition. Early in the combat, Gunnery Sergeant Lee, the Second in Command was seriously wounded and reported as dead. The Guardia immediately behind Lieutenant Puller in the point was killed by the first burst of fire. Lieutenant Puller, with great courage, coolness and display of military judgment, so directed the fire and movement of his men that the enemy were driven first from the high ground on the right of his position, and then by a flanking movement forced from the high ground to the left and finally were scattered in confusion with a loss of ten killed and many wounded by the persistent and well-directed attack of the patrol. The numerous casualties suffered by the enemy and the Guardia losses of two killed and four wounded are indicative of the severity of the enemy resistance. This signal victory in jungle country, with no lines of communication and a hundred miles from any supporting force, was largely due to the indomitable courage and persistence of the patrol commander. Returning with the wounded to Jinotega, the patrol was ambushed twice by superior forces on 30 September. On both of the occasions the enemy was dispersed with severe losses."
Third Navy Cross at Guadalcanal as Lieutenant Colonel; Citation:
"The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of the First Battalion, Seventh Marines, First Marine Division, during the action against enemy Japanese forces on Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, on the night of 24 to 25 October 1942. While Lieutenant Colonel Puller's battalion was holding a mile-long front in a heavy downpour of rain, a Japanese force, superior in number, launched a vigorous assault against that position of the line which passed through a dense jungle. Courageously withstanding the enemy's desperate and determined attacks, Lieutenant Colonel Puller not only held his battalion to its position until reinforcements arrived three hours later, but also effectively commanded the augmented force until late in the afternoon of the next day. By his tireless devotion to duty and cool judgment under fire, he prevented a hostile penetration of our lines and was largely responsible for the successful defense of the sector assigned to his troops. His conduct throughout was in keeping with the highest traditions of the Navy of the United States."
Fourth Navy Cross at Cape Gloucester as a Lieutenant Colonel; Citation:
"The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism as Executive Officer of the Seventh Marines, First Marine Division, serving with the Sixth United States Army, in combat against enemy Japanese forces at Cape Gloucester, New Britain, from 26 December 1943 to 19 January 1944. Assigned temporary command of the Third Battalion, Seventh Marines, from 4 to 9 January, Lieutenant Colonel Puller quickly reorganized and advanced his unit, effecting the seizure of the objective without delay. Assuming additional duty in command of the Third Battalion, Fifth Marines, from 7 to 8 January, after the commanding officer and executive officer had been wounded, Lieutenant Colonel Puller unhesitatingly exposed himself to rifle, machine-gun and mortar fire from strongly entrenched Japanese positions to move from company to company in his front lines, reorganizing and maintaining a critical position along a fire-swept ridge. His forceful leadership and gallant fighting spirit under the most hazardous conditions were contributing factors in the defeat of the enemy during this campaign and in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."
Fifth Navy Cross in Korea as a Colonel during the Chosin Reservoir action. Citation:
"Fighting continuously in sub-zero weather against a vastly outnumbering hostile force, (the then) Colonel Puller drove off repeated and fanatical enemy attacks upon his Regimental defense sector and supply points. Although the area was frequently covered by grazing machine gun fire and intense artillery and mortar fire, he coolly moved among his troops to insure their correct tactical employment, reinforced the lines as the situation demanded and successfully defended his perimeter, keeping open the main supply routes for the movement of the Division.
"During the attack from Koto-ri to Hungman, he expertly utilized his Regiment as the Division rear guard, repelling two fierce enemy assaults which severely threatened the security of the unit, and personally supervised the care and prompt evacuation of all casualties.
"By his unflagging determination, he served to inspire his men to heroic efforts in defense of their positions and assured the safety of much valuable equipment which would otherwise have been lost to the enemy. His skilled leadership, superb courage and valiant devotion to duty in the face of overwhelming odds reflect the highest credit upon Colonel Puller and the United States Naval Service."
Puller was also awarded the Army's Distinguished Service Cross; Citation:
"The Distinguished Service Cross is awarded to Colonel Lewis B. Puller, United States Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism in military operation against an armed enemy. Colonel Lewis B. Puller, United States Marine Corps, Commanding Officer, 1st Regiment, 1st Marine Division, distinguished himself by extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations against an armed enemy during the period 29 November to 4 December 1950. His actions contributed materially to the breakthrough of the 1st Marine Regiment in the Chosin Reservoir area and are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service."
A list of all of Puller's awards and campaign ribbons:
Navy Cross with Gold Stars in lieu of four additional awards; the Army Distinguished Service Cross; the Army Silver Star Medal; the Legion of Merit with Combat "V" and Gold Star in lieu of a second award; the Bronze Star Medal with Combat "V;" the Air Medal with Gold Stars in lieu of second and third awards; and the Purple Heart Medal. His other medals and decorations include the Presidential Unit Citation Ribbon with four bronze stars; the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal with one bronze star; the World War I Victory Medal with West Indies clasp; the Haitian Campaign Medal; the Second Nicaraguan Campaign Medal; the Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal with one bronze star; the China Service Medal; the American Defense Service Medal with Base clasp; the American Area Campaign Medal; the Asiatic-Pacific Area Campaign Medal with four bronze stars; the World War II Victory Medal; the National Defense Service Medal; the Korean Service Medal with one silver star in lieu of five bronze stars; the United Nations Service Medal; the Haitian Medaille Militaire; the Nicaraguan Presidential Medal of Merit with Diploma; the Nicaraguan Cross of Valor with Diploma; the Republic of Korea's Ulchi Medal with Gold Star; and the Korean Presidential Unit Citation with Oak Leaf Cluster.
First Navy Cross in Nicaragua in 1930 as 1st Lieutenant, citation:
"The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, for distinguished service in the line of his professional while commanding a Nicaraguan National Guard patrol. First Lieutenant Lewis B. Puller, United States Marine Corps, successfully led his forces into five successful engagements against superior numbers of armed bandit forces; namely, at LaVirgen on 16 February 1930, at Los Cedros on 6 June 1930, at Moncotal on 22 July 1930, at Guapinol on 25 July 1930, and at Malacate on 19 August 1930, with the result that the bandits were in each engagement completely routed with losses of nine killed and many wounded. By his intelligent and forceful leadership without thought of his own personal safety, by great physical exertion and by suffering many hardships, Lieutenant Puller surmounted all obstacles and dealt five successive and severe blows against organized banditry in the Republic of Nicaragua."
Second Navy Cross in Nicaragua in 1932 as 1st Lieutenant, Citation:
"The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, for exceptionally meritorious service in a duty of great responsibility while in command of a Guardia Patrol from 20 September to 1 October 1932. Lieutenant Puller and his command of forty Guardia and Gunnery Sergeant William A. Lee, United States Marine Corps, serving as a First Lieutenant in the Guardia, penetrated the isolated mountainous bandit territory for a distance of from eighty to one hundred miles north of Jinotega, his nearest base. This patrol was ambushed on 26 September 1932, at a point northeast of Mount Kilambe by an insurgent force of one hundred fifty in a well-prepared position armed with not less than seven automatic weapons and various classes of small arms and well-supplied with ammunition. Early in the combat, Gunnery Sergeant Lee, the Second in Command was seriously wounded and reported as dead. The Guardia immediately behind Lieutenant Puller in the point was killed by the first burst of fire. Lieutenant Puller, with great courage, coolness and display of military judgment, so directed the fire and movement of his men that the enemy were driven first from the high ground on the right of his position, and then by a flanking movement forced from the high ground to the left and finally were scattered in confusion with a loss of ten killed and many wounded by the persistent and well-directed attack of the patrol. The numerous casualties suffered by the enemy and the Guardia losses of two killed and four wounded are indicative of the severity of the enemy resistance. This signal victory in jungle country, with no lines of communication and a hundred miles from any supporting force, was largely due to the indomitable courage and persistence of the patrol commander. Returning with the wounded to Jinotega, the patrol was ambushed twice by superior forces on 30 September. On both of the occasions the enemy was dispersed with severe losses."
Third Navy Cross at Guadalcanal as Lieutenant Colonel; Citation:
"The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of the First Battalion, Seventh Marines, First Marine Division, during the action against enemy Japanese forces on Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, on the night of 24 to 25 October 1942. While Lieutenant Colonel Puller's battalion was holding a mile-long front in a heavy downpour of rain, a Japanese force, superior in number, launched a vigorous assault against that position of the line which passed through a dense jungle. Courageously withstanding the enemy's desperate and determined attacks, Lieutenant Colonel Puller not only held his battalion to its position until reinforcements arrived three hours later, but also effectively commanded the augmented force until late in the afternoon of the next day. By his tireless devotion to duty and cool judgment under fire, he prevented a hostile penetration of our lines and was largely responsible for the successful defense of the sector assigned to his troops. His conduct throughout was in keeping with the highest traditions of the Navy of the United States."
Fourth Navy Cross at Cape Gloucester as a Lieutenant Colonel; Citation:
"The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism as Executive Officer of the Seventh Marines, First Marine Division, serving with the Sixth United States Army, in combat against enemy Japanese forces at Cape Gloucester, New Britain, from 26 December 1943 to 19 January 1944. Assigned temporary command of the Third Battalion, Seventh Marines, from 4 to 9 January, Lieutenant Colonel Puller quickly reorganized and advanced his unit, effecting the seizure of the objective without delay. Assuming additional duty in command of the Third Battalion, Fifth Marines, from 7 to 8 January, after the commanding officer and executive officer had been wounded, Lieutenant Colonel Puller unhesitatingly exposed himself to rifle, machine-gun and mortar fire from strongly entrenched Japanese positions to move from company to company in his front lines, reorganizing and maintaining a critical position along a fire-swept ridge. His forceful leadership and gallant fighting spirit under the most hazardous conditions were contributing factors in the defeat of the enemy during this campaign and in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."
Fifth Navy Cross in Korea as a Colonel during the Chosin Reservoir action. Citation:
"Fighting continuously in sub-zero weather against a vastly outnumbering hostile force, (the then) Colonel Puller drove off repeated and fanatical enemy attacks upon his Regimental defense sector and supply points. Although the area was frequently covered by grazing machine gun fire and intense artillery and mortar fire, he coolly moved among his troops to insure their correct tactical employment, reinforced the lines as the situation demanded and successfully defended his perimeter, keeping open the main supply routes for the movement of the Division.
"During the attack from Koto-ri to Hungman, he expertly utilized his Regiment as the Division rear guard, repelling two fierce enemy assaults which severely threatened the security of the unit, and personally supervised the care and prompt evacuation of all casualties.
"By his unflagging determination, he served to inspire his men to heroic efforts in defense of their positions and assured the safety of much valuable equipment which would otherwise have been lost to the enemy. His skilled leadership, superb courage and valiant devotion to duty in the face of overwhelming odds reflect the highest credit upon Colonel Puller and the United States Naval Service."
Puller was also awarded the Army's Distinguished Service Cross; Citation:
"The Distinguished Service Cross is awarded to Colonel Lewis B. Puller, United States Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism in military operation against an armed enemy. Colonel Lewis B. Puller, United States Marine Corps, Commanding Officer, 1st Regiment, 1st Marine Division, distinguished himself by extraordinary heroism in connection with military operations against an armed enemy during the period 29 November to 4 December 1950. His actions contributed materially to the breakthrough of the 1st Marine Regiment in the Chosin Reservoir area and are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service."
A list of all of Puller's awards and campaign ribbons:
Navy Cross with Gold Stars in lieu of four additional awards; the Army Distinguished Service Cross; the Army Silver Star Medal; the Legion of Merit with Combat "V" and Gold Star in lieu of a second award; the Bronze Star Medal with Combat "V;" the Air Medal with Gold Stars in lieu of second and third awards; and the Purple Heart Medal. His other medals and decorations include the Presidential Unit Citation Ribbon with four bronze stars; the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal with one bronze star; the World War I Victory Medal with West Indies clasp; the Haitian Campaign Medal; the Second Nicaraguan Campaign Medal; the Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal with one bronze star; the China Service Medal; the American Defense Service Medal with Base clasp; the American Area Campaign Medal; the Asiatic-Pacific Area Campaign Medal with four bronze stars; the World War II Victory Medal; the National Defense Service Medal; the Korean Service Medal with one silver star in lieu of five bronze stars; the United Nations Service Medal; the Haitian Medaille Militaire; the Nicaraguan Presidential Medal of Merit with Diploma; the Nicaraguan Cross of Valor with Diploma; the Republic of Korea's Ulchi Medal with Gold Star; and the Korean Presidential Unit Citation with Oak Leaf Cluster.
Nonskimmer
Captain
I saw a special on Chesty Puller quite some time ago. One helluva man. Five Navy Crosses and a DSC! Geez! 
- Thread starter
- #34
elmilitaro
Senior Airman
Wow!!
syscom3
Pacific Historian
I think we can summarize it this way.
The minority soldiers, airmen and sailors fought two enemies. One was the axis forces, but also prejudiced officers at all levels of command who denied them their credit when it was due.
Its too late to go back and start changing the facts and reawarding medals as the surrounding circumstances have been lost to the fog of time and fading memories.
However, I do commend those minority units for fighting for what was right and for demonstrating in no uncertein terms that they were fully Americans and society could no longer deny them their rights.
The minority soldiers, airmen and sailors fought two enemies. One was the axis forces, but also prejudiced officers at all levels of command who denied them their credit when it was due.
Its too late to go back and start changing the facts and reawarding medals as the surrounding circumstances have been lost to the fog of time and fading memories.
However, I do commend those minority units for fighting for what was right and for demonstrating in no uncertein terms that they were fully Americans and society could no longer deny them their rights.
