There were a small number of communists in Britain and a small fraction of these belonged to the Labour Party, the Labour Party however represented the acceptable face of capitalism rather than its unacceptable face. The majority of those in Britain that supported the lunatic fringes of politics had their roots in the Tory Party, both the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail were huge advocates of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, there were in fact a great number of pro Nazi defeatists within the Tory party and good old Winston had first to tread them into the ground in order to save Britain from surrender.
Selective War Declarations?
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There were a small number of communists in Britain and a small fraction of these belonged to the Labour Party, the Labour Party however represented the acceptable face of capitalism rather than its unacceptable face. The majority of those in Britain that supported the lunatic fringes of politics had their roots in the Tory Party, both the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail were huge advocates of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, there were in fact a great number of pro Nazi defeatists within the Tory party and good old Winston had first to tread them into the ground in order to save Britain from surrender.
During November 41 Japan asked Germany what it would do if Japan found itself at war with the USA, the German leadership even then stated it would declare war against the USA in support of Japan.
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silence
Senior Airman
"daftest"? greatest understatement EVAH!!!! That'd be like saying my high school soccer team was daft for challenging Arsenal.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Keep in mind that up to 7 December 1941, the popular sentiment in the U.S. was to remain neutral. Many interpreted this as being unwilling to wage war or wage total war (including Axis leaders).
The attack on Pearl Harbor drastically changed the public's opinion of going to war.
The attack on Pearl Harbor drastically changed the public's opinion of going to war.
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silence
Senior Airman
Good point. Very good point.
I think the attack on Pearl demonstrates that the Japanese leadership was as daft as Grofaz.
And, yet, it seems today that in some places some people think these rather dramatic lessons do not apply to them. Even the gentlest, most "progressive new-agey" parent may finally come to the decision that a firm paddling is in order. Will he give a classic beating, or will he decide to hit for distance?...
I think the attack on Pearl demonstrates that the Japanese leadership was as daft as Grofaz.
And, yet, it seems today that in some places some people think these rather dramatic lessons do not apply to them. Even the gentlest, most "progressive new-agey" parent may finally come to the decision that a firm paddling is in order. Will he give a classic beating, or will he decide to hit for distance?...
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I tend to think the War could have taken many different turns, for instance if the British had won some of the early campaigns that they lost this may have led to them losing the war. I wonder how long Poland could have held out against Germany if the USSR had not also invaded, I don't think it would have been long and it is not clear to me whether Britain and France were aware that the USSR was going to join Germany in the invasion of Poland.
Looking at after the war there are many who accuse the West of abandoning Poland, I don't think Poland was abandoned as it seems to me that there was a general realisation in the West that a dispute over Poland with the USSR could have only led to a war which the West was in no real position to win. My own opinion is that the cold war was the strategy by which the west planned to free Eastern Europe from the Soviet Empire.
Looking at after the war there are many who accuse the West of abandoning Poland, I don't think Poland was abandoned as it seems to me that there was a general realisation in the West that a dispute over Poland with the USSR could have only led to a war which the West was in no real position to win. My own opinion is that the cold war was the strategy by which the west planned to free Eastern Europe from the Soviet Empire.
buffnut453
Captain
For those who suggest the West abandoned Poland, I would ask one question...what, realistically, could France or Britain do to assist? Both countries were still playing rearmament catch-up during 1939. Neither had contiguous borders with Poland, indeed just getting forces INTO Poland presented insurmountable difficulties. Even if forces could be deployed, how would they be resupplied? Even working out C3 issues with the Poles would have been challenging.
The desire to affect outcomes is often constrained by factors outside our control. Such was the case with the Allies and Poland in 1939. Britain and France drew a line which both thought would cow Hitler. He merrily skipped over that line because he correctly judged that neither Britain nor France could stop him.
The desire to affect outcomes is often constrained by factors outside our control. Such was the case with the Allies and Poland in 1939. Britain and France drew a line which both thought would cow Hitler. He merrily skipped over that line because he correctly judged that neither Britain nor France could stop him.
If France would have had any clue what was coming, they would and should have attacked Germany right there during the war in Poland. The Germans had all their strength in the east and quite probably would have had a hard time coping with such an attack. Had France ceased the Rurhgebiet, I doubt if Germany could have handled that, even with the bad preparation the French had.
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silence
Senior Airman
France moving into Germany in Sept. '39 could likely have toppled the Nazi government. I think it would have given the dissenting Generals the "honorable" reason they thought they needed to move against Hitlers and he fellow defectives. (While I admire their sense of honor, it makes me sad that they clung to it so tightly while millions died.)
I remember reading that the announcement of war in Germany brought a pall down over the country, quite unlike the euphoria of 1914.
I remember reading that the announcement of war in Germany brought a pall down over the country, quite unlike the euphoria of 1914.
Only possible if you take the situation in 1939 out of all historical context. There are reasons that French forces were disposed the way they were in 1939/40. The plan was to fight the Germans in Belgium, a neutral country. It had to be Germany, not Britain or France that violated that neutrality. Same goes for the Netherlands.
Cheers
Steve
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
As a personal onservation, there should have been red flags showing with how Germany had been attempting inroads against Poland since the mid 30's with "Diplomatic" overtures, like their interest in Danzig and certain requests for territory exchanges.
buffnut453
Captain
The first phase of the BEF's deployment to France was only completed on 11 Oct 39 (and even then there were chronic equipment shortages) some 2 weeks after Poland had surrendered. I'm afraid it's hard to see how the BEF could have done anything to aid Poland by attacking Germany.
As for France, they could potentially have charged over the border into Germany but at the risk of leaving an exposed flank thru Belgium (or violating Belgian and Dutch neutrality). It's also hard to imagine implementing such a major operation without allies in tow and to do it at relatively short notice. In reality it's hard to square the French mindset of reliance on the Maginot defences with an all-out assault on Germany in the autumn of 1939.
As for France, they could potentially have charged over the border into Germany but at the risk of leaving an exposed flank thru Belgium (or violating Belgian and Dutch neutrality). It's also hard to imagine implementing such a major operation without allies in tow and to do it at relatively short notice. In reality it's hard to square the French mindset of reliance on the Maginot defences with an all-out assault on Germany in the autumn of 1939.
Not a chance. As you say the French mind set was very defensive. They would advance into Belgium to face the Germans on a narrow front and try to avoid the devastation of French territory still fresh in the memory from the first war.
I don't believe that the French Staff fancied taking on the Germans in open, mobile warfare.
Cheers
Steve
The French did advance into Germany but it was only a half hearted attempt.
Saar Offensive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Saar Offensive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The Japanese decided it had to attack the USA after the USA had imposed an oil embargo on them. The Japanese government and military were faced with a choice, either an embarrassing climb down over their policies in China or war. Given the power of the military in Japan and how important it was not to be seen to 'lose face' in those circles they were always going to choose war, even though some of them accepted that they could face total defeat if they did.
Military it was clear that even before the Soviet invasion that the Polish had been decisively defeated by the Germans. The Poles had massed the majority of their forces near the German border, but these had been cut off and over run in the first few days.
The military situation of France in the opening days of the conflict was not as strong as most people think.
here's a couple of posts by the poster 'The Purist' on the Armchair General forum that might be useful for the debate here
The Purist
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112161&highlight=France+1939&page=11
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The total number of British divisions deployed in France in September was 2.
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swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
Of course, the embargo was in direct response to Japan's invasion of China, so it's not like the US declared its embargo just for giggles.
