Shades of 1930?

[Matt308]

Hey guys, a gentle reminder to drop the use of derogatory references based upon race, ethnic background or nationality. If it continues the next reminder will not be so gentle. Thanks guys.

 

[mikewint]

Matt, i believe you misunderstood my meaning. the enemy is always depersonalized, it makes them easier to kill because you are not killing human beings and therefore morality never enters in to it. my statement that "morality is the first to go" refered to that depersonalization not to any specific race, nationality or color. troops in Iraq/afganistan do the same thing today as we did in vietnam as soldiers did in korea etc.
if any of you misunderstood my meaning in that phrase i ask your forgiveness it was not meant in a derogatory term except to the inhumanity of man

 

[Shinpachi]

Thanks for your care, Matt.
I, as a non-American at least, felt no derogatory but mikewint's opinion sounded closer to mine.

 

[mikewint]

Shinpachi, i'm glad that i did not offend you, nothing was further from my mind. all races have derogatory names for members not of their race and soldiers everywhere do it to the enemy

 

[Matt308]

The Mods recognize where many of these terms are derived and why. However, we still dol not condone their use here. So please refrain from doing so in the public forum. Thanks, Mike.

 

[Shinpachi]

Not at all, mikewint.
At least, I was enjoying your discussion with curiousity.

What I am sad is, if any, our politicians are trying to rely on the US military power so easily without making their basic efforts to solve the problem with China face to face.
They could do it because two nations were friendly for more than five hundreds years till the mid-19th century.

I have known this is our fault in Asia this time.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I've always wondered about what happened. I've studied the Russo-Japanese War with great interest and one of the common things I'd always read was the Chinese preferred the Japanese Soldiers as they would camp outside of the cities and actually helped the locals with engineering projects, whereas the Russians would take over houses kicking out the occupants and commandeer whatever they needed.

However I do agree with your point Shinpachi, it would be great if the government would work on it themselves, hopefully that is the route they will take.

 

[mikewint]

The Japanese military is a SELF-defense force but like all words is subject to definition. under the right conditions an invasion can certainly be construed as SELF defense. as to the US i really see no such senerio since we have our own sources. where i see a future conflict is over petroleum. sooner or later heads will butt over the last pork-chop

 

[RabidAlien]

Aren't there massively huge reserves parked underneath Alaska, that we can't/won't touch for fear of harming the environment? My guess is, when that "last pork chop" comes up for grabs, the US will find itself digging in Alaska, since all the treehugger types will be unable to protest as their cars/trucks/boats run low on fuel.

 

[mikewint]

RA, i do not think so, reserves if any are in off-shore locals, such as the gulf of mexico. The US big reserve is in the western oil shale but extraction is the problem. the oil is there but you create tons of tailings for every barrel. what we need is the so-called sweet, light crudes and that brings us back to the mid-east

 

[RabidAlien]

Or develop alternative fuels....get those nifty nuclear battery packs, fission-engines, and hovercars going! C'mon, this is the future!

 

[mikewint]

RA, if we speculate, the sky is the limit and anything is possible however on a practical note reality dictates that a substitute for petroleum is not in the near future. and if it were OPEC would under-cut its development. oil at the well-head is about $1.25/barrel so until they start to run out alternative fuels will never get off the ground

 

[RabidAlien]

Oh, I'm aware of the reality of it, and why we're just now seeing some battery technology introduced in smart-cars. It just pisses me off that there are groups who are willing to put the world through what its going through now (all this territorial crap over oil and gas, and the environmental issues with drilling and exhaust gases and all) just for the sake of more bucks in their pockets. Almost makes one wish that the end of the oil would come much sooner, and spur a "sudden" boom in alternative technologies. Of course, there'd be many years of scarcity and exorbitant prices on oil and gas before someone decided that that dead horse had been squeezed as far as it could go. Heh. Might inspire a bunch of lazy couchpotatoes and pasty-skinned web-surfers to get out and bike to work instead!

 

[mikewint]

could not agree more RA. i clearly remember the gas crises of 1975 followed by a boom of alternative energy initiatives, that died within 3-4 years as OPEC cut gas prices and drove them out of business.
just a few years ago when gas prices were heading toward $5/gal all kinds of high milage vehicles were being developed. basically the prius is all that's left with gas in the $2.50/gal range.
we make a big noise about ethanol fuels but the reality is that the amount of corn need to make one tank full of ethanol for an SUV would feed one person for a year. so land for food or land for fuel. we're on the horns RA

 

[Shinpachi]

I've always wondered about what happened. I've studied the Russo-Japanese War with great interest and one of the common things I'd always read was the Chinese preferred the Japanese Soldiers as they would camp outside of the cities and actually helped the locals with engineering projects, whereas the Russians would take over houses kicking out the occupants and commandeer whatever they needed.

However I do agree with your point Shinpachi, it would be great if the government would work on it themselves, hopefully that is the route they will take.

You are studying our history and culture very well, vB.
I admire it very much.

Though I need more research and study, the Japanese were a good student of western style of war in the early stage of their westernization in the late 19th century but were changing to the arrogant people war by war.

I guess that was because they got confidence victory after victory from First Sino-Japanese War in 1894 to the World War 1 in 1914, by way of the Russo-Japanese War in 1904. Turning point looks their withdrawal from League of Nations in 1933 to me when they began to make light of the western rules.

 

[SpitfireKing]

I worked briefly in Russia and for a year in China. The Russians are as afraid of China as they are of the west. China is a nuclear power who share a border and outnumber them by approximately 10 to 1 and Chinas population is increasing while Russias is pretty static. So I dont know whether Russia would back China for ideological reasons or stay on the right side for fear of making an enemy of them.

The Chinese young and old all have a deap seated loathing of Japan, there has been no reconciliation as there has in Europe.

Reading a book (wish I had it with me then I could give the title), tells about old Korea (late 19 century to mid 20th century) and gives a good view on the split between China an Japan. Been old as time itself pretty much. What I am wondering about, as I wonder about a lot really, is why they don't simply get together and talk it through, they need to, for their people and for themselves. Though I suppose ego and pride gets in the way.

 

[Shinpachi]

We, the Japanese and the Chinese, are not so unfriendly as being reported in the news.
As long as I know, no Chinese workers and students around me went back to their home during the incident at least.
So did the Japanese in China. I myself was surprised to see the big news in the foreign news sites.

 

[tail end charlie]

Reading a book (wish I had it with me then I could give the title), tells about old Korea (late 19 century to mid 20th century) and gives a good view on the split between China an Japan. Been old as time itself pretty much. What I am wondering about, as I wonder about a lot really, is why they don't simply get together and talk it through, they need to, for their people and for themselves. Though I suppose ego and pride gets in the way.

Visiting China and Japan is like visiting Holland and Germany, Japanese and Chinese will say they are different but to an outsider many things are the same or similar. The trouble with the history of China Japan and Korea is how far back it goes, like a playground fight you cant figure out who actually started it.

 

[Shinpachi]

Asians are brothers. Chinese, Koreans and Japanese are closer above all, so it may be easier for us to complain more directly each other than, say, westerners.
Asian style negotiation is always on the choice between the principle and the true intention.
For example, no matter what a big threat Kim Jong Il may shout, we don't understand it as his true intention. That can't be a big news here.

Please let me point out that there were no big conflicts in the east Asia till westerners came.
China was colonized and Japan had joined the game carelessly.
So, I feel deep apology for the Chinese.
We Japanese are never arrogant on this point.

 

[tail end charlie]

Asians are brothers. Chinese, Koreans and Japanese are closer above all, so it may be easier for us to complain more directly each other than, say, westerners.
Asian style negotiation is always on the choice between the principle and the true intention.
For example, no matter what a big threat Kim Jong Il may shout, we don't understand it as his true intention. That can't be a big news here.

Please let me point out that there were no big conflicts in the east Asia till westerners came.
China was colonized and Japan had joined the game carelessly.
So, I feel deep apology for the Chinese.
We Japanese are never arrogant on this point.

Shinpachi

there appears to be a small error on the map, Japan and Korea are the same colour. I think there are better forums for political history.