Should The Allies Have Bypassed Italy?

Should The Allies Have Bypassed Italy?

  • yes

    Votes: 8 25.8%

  • no

    Votes: 23 74.2%
  • Total voters
    31

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Out of curiosity, Juha, how many Italians were lost in the East - fighting for the Germans - by December, 1942 ...?

Italians know that fish rot from the head down ...

MM
 
Hello Vincenzo
You are right, the Almond and Buffalo Soldiers aka 92nd Div case

Juha
 
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michaelmaltby said:
Out of curiosity, Juha, how many Italians were lost in the East - fighting for the Germans - by December, 1942 ...?

Italians know that fish rot from the head down ...

MM
Click to expand...

Hello Michael
I cannot remember but Italian 8th Army suffered heavy losses, Wiki probably knows.

Juha
 
Wiki says ...

".... In July 1941, some 62,000 Italian troops of the Italian Expeditionary Corps in Russia (Corpo di Spedizione Italiano in Russia, or CSIR) left for the Eastern Front to aid in the German invasion of the Soviet Union (Operation Barbarossa).
In July 1942, the Italian Royal Army (Regio Esercito) expanded the CSIR to a full army of about 200,000 men known as the Italian Army in Russia (Armata Italiana in Russia, or ARMIR). The ARMIR was also known as the "Italian 8th Army."
From August 1942-February 1943, the Italian 8th Army took part in the Battle of Stalingrad. At Stalingrad, the 8th Army suffered heavy losses (some 20,000 dead and 64,000 captured) when the Soviets isolated the German forces in Stalingrad by attacking the over-stretched Hungarian, Romanian, and Italian forces protecting the German's flanks.
By the summer of 1943, Rome had withdrawn the remnants of these troops to Italy. Many of the Italian POWs captured in the Soviet Union died in captivity due to the harsh conditions in the Soviet prison camps..."

MM
 


I agree that the Saro Republic was intensely unpopular, in part because the italians believed it would not stand, and in part because the Germans, under intense pressure from the allies took drastic and violent action to suppress the resistance against them. Remove that pressure and the Saro Republic gains a bit of breathing space. Moreover, the pressure from the germans on the italian people would also be likely to decrease.

As it was the Italians raised about 8 divs under the Saro Reppublic. They were badly equipped, but did reasonably well against the allies
 
I think it was a political decision; and the rose coloured lens saw the Italians joining the allied cause and chucking out the Germans. With that scenario things looked really good for the Italian invasion. I would have thought that an invasion, if possible, closer to the top end of the boot would have been better served.
 
The further up the boot the greater the danger of being cut off from supplies. Everything is going to come by sea but but putting your landing site/s supply points in areas dominated by enemy air power and hundreds of miles from friendly land based air is risky. It also gives scope to enemy submarines and MTBs IF not all surrender to the Allies.
 

Precisely, and very well put....

Salerno was selected as the landing point because it was within range of Spitfires based in Sicily. spitfires at theat time were the dominant fighter type in both the CW and the US air forces.

Further, the attack at Salerno was thought ideal because it gave ready support to the assault also taking place at Messina and permitted the port of Taranto to be threatened whilst also placing the assault within striking range of the important city of Naples and byond that, Rome.

The allies had hoped that the italians would be able to resist for longer than they did, and that this resistance would give the allies the opportunity to push through the mountains south of Rome. This of course was not to be, and for ten months the allies became mired in a vicious static assault battle at Cassino

The allies had considered landings north of Rome but had rejecte them primarily because air cover could not be effectively provided. It was a wise decision. Despite having lost air superiority in the TO, the Germans mounted some very effective aerial attacks on the allied invasion TFs as wll as the now retreating Italian fleet. It does not take much aerial intervention to disrupt amphibious assaults, provided they can be delivered at the right moment
 
ADMIRAL MEZEVIRIS, The naval war of the Mediterranean 1939-1945The Allied landing at Salerno, Athens 1961


"the purpose of the landing at Salerno was the seizure of the port of Naples and the nearby airports, as well as the creation of a bridgehead along a front of some 40 miles. When the landing was executed, the Germans had already disarmed the Italian armies and had taken over the defense. The execution of the operation proved very difficult; at some point of time the situation became critical for the Allies.

The landing started at dawn of September 9 and initially met important resistance. At around sunset of that day resistance was provisionally bent, as the Germans withdrew. The German gun batteries from the surrounding hills dominated the landing shores and the Germans were quickly assembling troops to counterattack. The guns of the allied ships were supporting the landing, but the Germans used against them the new powerful weapon that was also used for the sinking of RN ROMA, the new teleguided missiles launched by airplanes. On the morning of September 11, from a short range hit of such a missile the American cruiser USS PHILADELPHIA suffered serious damages and shortly afterwards the sister ship USS SAVANNAH was very seriously hit and had to sail to Malta for provisional repairs.

The night of September 11-12, the Germans started a series of counterattacks trying to interpose between the American armies in the South and the British in the North. Because it was not easy for the allies to deploy artillery on the narrow strips of land that they had seized, the ships supported with heavy fire the troops that landed, being themselves targets of heavy of heavy bombing by the German air force. Enemy air planes hit in the morning of September 13, 2 British floating hospitals, one of which sunk with heavy human losses. In the evening of that same day, the cruiser HMS UGANDA was also hit by the Germans, but succeeded reaching Malta.

On the night of September 13, the Germans came as close as 3 miles from the beach and succeeded to come between the landing shores of the Allies. The next day the Americans withdrew even more and the military situation became quite critical. Vice Admiral Hewitt, Commander of the allied landing forces, requested the execution of heavy bombing from the air and with heavy guns behind the enemy positions.

The British battleships HMS WARSPITE and HMS VALIANT from the covering naval force were immediately dispatched and on September 15 executed bombings with their heavy guns up to a distance of 20,000 meters, while at the same time all the remaining available ships were also firing.

In parallel, since the previous day, all the available allied air forces of the Mediterranean were attacking the German concentrations, causing serious losses and havoc, while the successful fire of the naval artillery impeded the dispatch of reinforcements. Thus, on 16th the situation had stabilized and the Allies succeeded to repeat their attack. For one more time, the importance of the ships' artillery for the support of amphibious operations had become evident.

This precious contribution of the battleships to the improvement of the military situation on the shore caused a serious loss to the British. On the evening of September 16, a teleguided missile from the air hit the HMS WARSPITE and caused her very serious damages and heavy losses of life. All the boiler rooms were inundated; the ship was towed to Malta following an adventurous trip through the Messina Strait. Repairs lasted a very long time and were not yet over in June 1944, when the ship took part to the landing in Normandy.

The allied advance continued and after fierce battles the advanced divisions were entering Naples on the morning of October 2, 1943; the Germans, before withdrawing, had completely destroyed the port. The Allies, however, succeeded an important achievement restoring in a really short time one of the largest supply bases of the army.

In the meantime, the Allies had undertaken the seizure of Sardinia and Corsica. In Sardinia they were 2 Italian divisions that right after the armistice joined the side of the Allies, while the German troops left Corsica. Since September 17, the Allies had at their disposal the airports of the island that were useful for the surveillance of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Western Mediterranean.

In Corsica, on the other hand, where 40,000 Italian troops and about 12,000 Germans were present, the Germans resisted. French military forces and a French naval force of 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers and 3 submarines were used for the seizure of the island. These forces, collaborating with the Italian, had completed by October 4 the seizure of the island; the airports and the naval base of Bastia were very useful for the Allies, as base of operations for small naval forces.

In October 1943, Admiral Andrew Cunningham, who led the allied naval war in the Mediterranean for almost 3 years and who in the most difficult moments had developed characteristics worthy of the best traditions of the British Navy, was named First Sea Lord of the Admiralty."
 
The Invasion of the Italian Mainland (from the above source).

"Naples was the original target, but was out of range for fighter aircraft based in Sicily and very difficult to assault. Allied planners therefore decided on Operation AVALANCHE, the first landing in Italy, at Salerno, fifty miles south of Naples, within fighter range and relatively lightly defended. First, however, German forces in Calabria, the toe of the Italian boot, would have to be confronted.

At 0430 on 3 September 1943, British and Canadian troops of the Eighth Army under General Bernard Montgomery executed Operation BAYTOWN, crossing the Strait of Messina into Calabria.

The Badoglio government, in response to an Allied ultimatum, signed a secret armistice agreement on 3 September, the day of the BAYTOWN landings. On 8 September 1943, formal announcement of the Italian surrender was made. The Germans quickly disarmed the Italians and took control of the defense of the Italian peninsula. Hitler gave Field Marshal Albert Kesselring responsibility for defending southern Italy.

On 9 September, in a hastily planned operation named SLAPSTICK, with the collaboration of the Italians, 3,600 men of the British 1st Paratroop Division landed unopposed at the port of Taranto in the Italian heel.

BAYTOWN went smoothly. Supported by a secure chain of supply, and capitalizing on German withdrawals, Eighth Army slowly cleared the toe of the Italian boot and by 14 September was moving up the Italian east coast. The Salerno landing, on 9 September, in conjunction with the Italian capitulation, drew German forces northward away from Eighth Army.


The main effort in the invasion of the Italian mainland was Operation AVALANCHE, at Salerno, where the US Fifth Army under General Mark W. Clark came ashore. Fifth Army was composed of the U.S. VI Corps, the British X Corps and the US 82nd Airborne Division, a total of about nine divisions. The plan called for Clark's Fifth Army to come ashore and eventually link up with Montgomery's British Eighth Army advancing north from BAYTOWN. Its primary objectives were to seize the port of Naples to ensure resupply, and to cut across to the east coast, trapping the Axis troops further south.
In the early morning hours of 9 September, the approximately 450 ships of Operation AVALANCHE assembled off the Salerno coast. Elements had sailed from Sicily and from Tripoli, Oran, and Bizerte in North Africa, some at sea as early as 5 and 6 September. To achieve surprise, there was no preliminary naval or aerial bombardment.
U.S. Rangers hit the beach unopposed at 0310, twenty minutes in advance of the main assault force, moving quickly inland to seize their objectives. British Commandos captured the town of Salerno against light opposition. The British X Corps landed under a heavy naval bombardment, meeting significant opposition as its soldiers fought their way inland. The untested men of the U.S. 36th Infantry Division came ashore at 0330 without supporting fire, hoping to surprise the Germans. Although the leading elements took heavy casualties, all six waves of the 36th Division assault element were on the beach by 0610. The Americans encountered small but intense resistance as they fought their way off the beaches. German Luftwaffe attacks against the beachhead were driven off by dawn as Allied aircraft from Sicily and supporting carriers appeared".
 
"Concluding the Campaign in Southern Italy.

With the Salerno beachhead fully secure, the Fifth Army could begin to attack northwards. The Allies gathered their strength in anticipation of the attack toward Naples. From 9 September through 1 October, 190,000 troops, 30,000 vehicles, and 120,000 tons of supplies came ashore across the Salerno beach. The remainder of the British 7th Armoured Division, the U.S. 3d Infantry Division, and the last of General Ridgway's 82d Airborne Division disembarked along with the supplies which would facilitate the attack northward.

The Eighth Army had been making quick progress from the 'toe' in the face of German delaying actions. It united its front with the Fifth Army on 16 September, and captured the airfields near Foggia, on the east coast, on 27 September. These would give the Allied air forces the ability to strike new targets in France, Germany and the Balkans. The Fifth Army captured Naples on 1 October (the first major European city to be liberated during WW II), and reached the line of the Volturno River on October 6th. This provided a natural barrier, securing Naples, the Campainian Plain and the vital airfields on it from counterattack. Meanwhile the British Eighth Army had advanced to a line from Larino to Campobasso. The whole of southern Italy was now in Allied hands, and the drive northward could begin.
The capture of Naples and the Foggia airfield formally ended Operation AVALANCHE. The Allies suffered approximately 12,500 casualties (2,000 killed, 7,000 wounded, and 3,500 missing). Foggia, captured intact, would soon be used by Allied bombers.

The Italian Campaign After the Invasion of Southern Italy.

The Germans staged a fighting withdrawal and settled into a strong defensive position at the Winter Line, a set of three defensive perimeters of interlocking bunkers and fortifications that sealed off southern Italy. The formidable and sophisticated defensive belt of interlocking positions on the high ground along the Italian peninsula's narrowest point stopped the Allied advance. Both the west coast route and the Route 6 central mountain route blocked by the Germans. In late 1943, after a fierce battle at San Pietro, a stalemate developed that would not be broken until after the battles of Monte Cassino and the breakout from Anzio".
 
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parsifal said:
Salerno was selected as the landing point because it was within range of Spitfires based in Sicily. spitfires at theat time were the dominant fighter type in both the CW and the US air forces.
Click to expand...

I disagree, I think the P-40 was the most numerous (and therefore dominant) type being utilized by the Allies in the MTO by 1943.
 
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This isn't correct!

From many books and researched confirmed kills from lost lists the P40 was clearly outclassed from the Bf 109F and G and the FW 190!

The Spitfire was the a/c fighter of the allies which won back air superiority!
The spitfire was by far the most important fighter a/c at the Mediterranean at 1942/43

Quote from Glider:

Quote from Vincenzo:
P-40 get bad result v/s 109 in NA, Nikademus posted from Shore's books: P-40 (US&allies) losses vs 109: 522, 109 losses vs P-40 (US&allies): 206
Click to expand...
 
"most numerous (and therefore dominant)" are not actually the same thing.

I haven't looked at the numbers, P-40s may very well have been the most numerous type but many of their missions were as fighter bombers with the emphasis on "bombers". They were being given top cover (or being escorted) by other fighters, like the Spitfires.

If the P-40s are NOT being USED as fighters then it is hard to say that they are the "dominant" type regardless of numbers.
 
DonL said:
The Spitfire was the a/c fighter of the allies which won back air superiority!
The spitfire was by far the most important fighter a/c at the Mediterranean at 1942/43
Click to expand...

I think the fact that so many more units were equipped with the P-40 than the Spit or any other type is exactly why it would be considered the most "dominant" used by the Allies. I didnt say it was better than other types used in MTO. The Allies gained and kept air superiority mostly due to the numerical advantage in aircraft pilots they employed in the theater.

Also, to suggest that TAS missions dont count as, or arent as important as CAP or top cover is wrong imo. I think TAS was the most important asset of a fighter in the MTO and the main reason why the P-40 was used successfully until adequate numbers of better types became available.
 

Stug,

With all due respect to yourself and the considerable knowledge of the posters on this topic and the data cited here, one of the factors that I think may creep in to influence american perceptions is the long standing "absent-history" of the USAAF widespread use of the Spitfire as the primary air to air weapon in England and during the early campaigns in the MTO, through I'd guess about spring or mid-1943. I think its been pointed out elsewhere that Ike's aerial escort typically consisted of american flown spits. I know many friends who consider themselves knowledgable about WW2 aviation matters are surprised to learn how many USAAF fighter groups (I believe 2 or 3? in NA) were equipped with Spitfires. IIUC, while there was a transition to US Built aircraft through 1943, I believe there was still a significant component of the USAAF and RAF spitfires flying air superiority missions during the later Italian campaign.

from: http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/uncle-sams-spitfires.html

"Uncle Sam's Spitfires had written a little-known chapter in US fighter history. Though the USAAF used over 600 Spitfires during the war, the aircraft was never given a US designation, and little publicity was given to the exploits of the 31st and 52nd Fighter Groups – nothing like what they would get in the summer of 1944 during the wild air battles over Ploesti when they flew Mustangs. This is most likely a good example of the US military's overall dislike of having to admit to using "NIH" (Not Invented Here) equipment."

Purported to be a USAAF flown spit photo during Salerno landing (September, 1943)

http://www.ww2incolor.com/us-air-force/life_276.html

Just saying...
 
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stug3 said:
The Allies gained and kept air superiority mostly due to the numerical advantage in aircraft pilots they employed in the theater.
Click to expand...

They gained and kept air superiority by using Spitfires and P-38s as air superiority fighters.


I don't think it is being said that TAS missions don't count or were not important. But TAS was NOT the most important asset of a fighter in the MTO (or even most other theaters). Think about it. Did P-40s squadrons fly "top cover" without bombs while other P-40 squadrons did the bombing or did P-40s do the bombing while other fighter types fly top cover for them? If the fighters "assigned" to top cover cannot protect the TAS aircraft then the TAS mission is defeated. To defeat the TAS mission it is not necessary to shoot down a single TAS aircraft, merely get them to jettison their bombs short of the target.

The P-40 was a very useful TAS aircraft which is the reason it was kept in use but without support (escort) by other fighter types it could not perform it's TAS mission.
 
Shortround6 said:
They gained and kept air superiority by using Spitfires and P-38s as air superiority fighters.
Click to expand...

I dont think there were nearly as many units equipped with Spitfires and P-38s as there were P-40s. P-40 units learned what to do what not to do when taking on various enemy types.



Shortround6 said:
But TAS was NOT the most important asset of a fighter in the MTO (or even most other theaters).
Click to expand...

I disagree

Shortround6 said:
Did P-40s squadrons fly "top cover" without bombs while other P-40 squadrons did the bombing
Click to expand...

Yes, I think this was most often the case. One unit within the squadron would fly cover for another unit designated to do the bombing.


Shortround6 said:
or did P-40s do the bombing while other fighter types fly top cover for them?
Click to expand...

Im sure this was a fairly common occurrance also.



Its a well documented fact that P-40 units were quite capable of successfully defending themselves or attacking enemy formations. Experience taught them what they could and could not get away with when taking on different enemy types just as it did in the PTO CBI with F4Fs, etc.
 
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