Should the British Empire supported the CSA?

[Greg Boeser]

3) Washington wasn't populated by fools.

How times have changed.

 

[tyrodtom]

Slavery was a part of the South.
It was everything.
Religion economy social political.
Remove slavery and you remove the South.

Also in some states had a very large black population which was almost 50% so you had a new political power and also there was genuine fear of race war. It was all going on.

When Robert E Lee took over the Army of Northern Virginia he was dismayed to find his soldiers were unwilling to dig trenches and other defensive works as doing manual labour was beneath them.

I think you have a incorrect view of the majority of the Army of Northern Virginia.
Most of the enlisted were just boys or men off of small farms.
They owned no slaves, they were more than a little acquainted with manual labor.
Though if slaves were there to do the work, i'm sure they used them.

My fathers own family was from that class of soldiers, , not in the Army of Northern Va, but small time Southern farmers, but not slave owners.
My great Grandfather, and his father both died fighting for the South, during the Battle of Chattanooga .
With the death of those two family members, my father's family was devastated for the next 50 years.

 

[The Basket]

I would like to see how powerful the Royal Navy was in the 1860s to see if what was what so still looking into that.

 

[swampyankee]

Right. Anyone who's done a little reading understands that the state's-rights revisionism is exactly that. The CSA constitution specifically forbade any Confederate state from banning slavery, or not honoring the slavery of another state. So much for state's rights.

And I doubt the UK would be willing to overlook that after practicing slavery patrols for three decades.

Your point about expansion is apt as well. Because of the Missouri Compromise, the South had for expansion slave territory the desert southwest, which meant that slavery was actually going to be economically inviable somewhere between Abilene and Odessa. Once you hit the High Plains, farming becomes subsistence-only, at least in that pre-mechanical irrigation period. The slave states knew they were getting crowded out, which is why they picked the fight in the first place.

It was also total nonsense before the war. While some secessionists did babble about states' rights, they specifically excluded anything involving slavery. They weren't too fond of, say, the First Amendment, either, with many of them outlawing discussion of abolition or refusing to prosecute attacks on abolitionist groups or individuals.

 

[Peter Gunn]

I think you have a incorrect view of the majority of the Army of Northern Virginia.
Most of the enlisted were just boys or men off of small farms.
They owned no slaves, they were more than a little acquainted with manual labor.
Though if slaves were there to do the work, i'm sure they used them.

My fathers own family was from that class of soldiers, , not in the Army of Northern Va, but small time Southern farmers, but not slave owners.
My great Grandfather, and his father both died fighting for the South, during the Battle of Chattanooga .
With the death of those two family members, my father's family was devastated for the next 50 years.

Totally agree with the part I bolded, had a family friend from Mississippi who was an expert in genealogy. He started researching his own family (finally) and got tied up reading many a Civil War diary from southern soldiers. Many, and by many I mean all of the diaries he read, and they were in the hundreds, were from fellows just like you're talking about. Virtually none of them were slave owners nor plantation dwellers, most were like you say, boys and men from small farms or towns.

 

[swampyankee]

Totally agree with the part I bolded, had a family friend from Mississippi who was an expert in genealogy. He started researching his own family (finally) and got tied up reading many a Civil War diary from southern soldiers. Many, and by many I mean all of the diaries he read, and they were in the hundreds, were from fellows just like you're talking about. Virtually none of them were slave owners nor plantation dwellers, most were like you say, boys and men from small farms or towns.

Slave owners were frequently exempt from conscription. Support for secession was also far from universal in the south; most southern states had white volunteers fighting for Union, especially from areas where slave-based economies hadn't developed, like the hill country of North Carolina or there was significant antipathy to the slave-owner dominated state government.

 

[yulzari]

George Washington's family name comes from a small town/village in Northern England where his ancestors were the ruling barons after the Norman invasion, I know this because prior to going "up north" to Washington they were called the barons of Hartburn, Hartburn was/is a village in northern England now a part of Stockton, as is Billingham where @rochie resides. Funny how these people manage to keep themselves and their families in charge of things over centuries and continents.

Not to mention that they were therefore aristocrats of ex Franks, ex Vikings, Flemings or Bretons (so ex Britons) origins. It all goes back to the events at the fall of the Roman Empire. I blame discovering the making of fire. That and coming down from the trees. In the medium term this would not have happened had King Knut's family secured their succession and maintained England within the North Sea Empire.

 

[swampyankee]

Not to mention that they were therefore aristocrats of ex Franks, ex Vikings, Flemings or Bretons (so ex Britons) origins. It all goes back to the events at the fall of the Roman Empire. I blame discovering the making of fire. That and coming down from the trees. In the medium term this would not have happened had King Knut's family secured their succession and maintained England within the North Sea Empire.

The French[1] conquest of England, which started in 1066, replaced most of the pre-conquest noble families.

Many of the plantation owners were descended from cadet branches of aristocratic families, with the associated culture of entitlement and arrogance.


[1] William the Conqueror was born in France, was a swore vassal to the king of France and spoke French as a first language. I would argue that if he wasn't French, the current British PM can't be considered British.

 

[pbehn]

The French[1] conquest of England, which started in 1066, replaced most of the pre-conquest noble families.

Many of the plantation owners were descended from cadet branches of aristocratic families, with the associated culture of entitlement and arrogance.


[1] William the Conqueror was born in France, was a swore vassal to the king of France and spoke French as a first language. I would argue that if he wasn't French, the current British PM can't be considered British.

That seems logical today, but perhaps not at the time. His crowning in 1066 was confirmation of his claim to the crown. At the time and for a long time before the various royal families of the region had been marrying their sons and daughters to cement relationships, this short term measure results in everyone having a claim on everywhere.. So William who was a duke in Normandy ( a huge area at the time stretching as far as the German border) also had a claim on the English crown which actually wasnt a huge area at that time, William quickly expanded it northwards, to where I live, establishing Durham as a Palatinate administered by a prince bishop whose main duty was to keep the Scots out.

 

[manta22]

Slave owners were frequently exempt from conscription. Support for secession was also far from universal in the south; most southern states had white volunteers fighting for Union, especially from areas where slave-based economies hadn't developed, like the hill country of North Carolina or there was significant antipathy to the slave-owner dominated state government.

Slavery in the Southern US came about from two main reasons- cotton and tobacco. Both crops were labor-intensive and required many, many field hands to plant, tend, and harvest. Paying farm laborers to do this work was cost prohibitive so slavery made the crops profitable. Here is something I wrote a while ago:
Sirene Bunten

On January 4th, 1863, Sirene Bunten, a 15 year old girl from French Creek, WV began writing her diary. She was my great Aunt. Her diary offers a glimpse into rural life during the Civil War, with news of the War and of local happenings, as well as her thoughts about herself.

Sirene's brother Birney, died of disease and Walter perished in the Hellhole of the Andersonville prison camp. Another brother, Watson Morgan Bunten, was seriously wounded at the Battle of Shiloh (aka Pittsburgh Landing) and later wounded again at Missionary Ridge in Chattanooga, but he survived to be reunited with his family in French Creek.

West Virginia had just joined the Union. The western mountain counties breaking away from the state of Virginia after it had seceded from the USA (Union) and joined the CSA (Confederacy). Here are only a very few of Sirene's representative diary entries:

January 4, 1863. One year ago today what sorrow fell on us; my dear brother Birney died at the hospital in Buckhannon. He belonged to Co E 3d Regt Va Vols. He was one of the many that gave his life to his country. Great excitement here now in the consequence of there being no soldiers on the Creek. Rumor says there is to be some sent up through here this week. I had a letter from James & Lorenzo this week, they are at Winchester now. Did not have any from Watson or Walter. (Her other two brothers).

January 26, 1863. Walter was at home last night, he could not stay but one night. He started for camp this morning, and we may not see him again for some time. William Curry has the smallpox, I think if it spreads we will have something besides war to think of. The war is still raging. It seems that we will know what war is after while, everything is swallowed up in the all absorbing topic war. I do hope we will hear that General McClellan has command of the army again. I think that the President ought to know better than to keep changing the commanders so often. I guess he thinks he is right but I do not. I would like to see him and tell him about it.

July 14, 1863. Good news to day, our army has been victorious in Penn. (Gettysburg) The war will soon be over. Lee's army is badly cut up and good news comes in from every side, enough to make one rejoice I think. The Stars and Stripes are floating over Vicksburg as I hope it soon will be over the whole of the U. S. A. The glorious star spangled banner. Letters from Aunt Elsey, James, and Lorenzo. Some rain last night.

July 6, 1864. Oh who would have believed one week ago that Walter would be a prisoner. He was captured at Green Springs with twelve others of that Co. Oh it is too much to be true. To think my brother will have to suffer in a southern jail, perhaps never see the outside of it. Dreadful thought but we will hope for the best.

December 14, 1864. Oh my dear journal, once again I am called upon to mourn the loss of a beloved brother. We heard to-day that Walter is dead, starved to death by a set of fiends. There may be some mistake, oh if I only knew, this agonizing suspense is worse than certainty. My brother my brother how can I give you up. Our father help us.

April 15, 1865. One short week ago and we were rejoicing over the fall of Richmond, now everything is changed. The nation is shrouded in mourning, for our president was this morning killed, shot dead. O what dreadful news it is to write, words fail me to express the deep sorrow that has fallen on our nation. To think that Abraham Lincoln our President, who has for four years governed us well and wisely, was deliberately shot this morning. Also, Sec. Seward died of sickness this morning. I can hardly realize this great loss it was so sudden.

Sirene Bunten ended her diary in 1866 but made one last entry in 1901:
"The smell of apple blossoms seems to come to me when I have this book. I think it is because I used to write in a window near the apple trees and every spring the sweet perfume came into the rooms. The old home is inhabited by another family and scattered are the friends of youth."

I wonder how many 15 year olds these days could write as well or even be as aware of important happenings as this girl in 1863?

 

[swampyankee]

Slavery in the Southern US came about from two main reasons- cotton and tobacco. Both crops were labor-intensive and required many, many field hands to plant, tend, and harvest. Paying farm laborers to do this work was cost prohibitive so slavery made the crops profitable. Here is something I wrote a while ago:
Sirene Bunten

On January 4th, 1863, Sirene Bunten, a 15 year old girl from French Creek, WV began writing her diary. She was my great Aunt. Her diary offers a glimpse into rural life during the Civil War, with news of the War and of local happenings, as well as her thoughts about herself.

Sirene's brother Birney, died of disease and Walter perished in the Hellhole of the Andersonville prison camp. Another brother, Watson Morgan Bunten, was seriously wounded at the Battle of Shiloh (aka Pittsburgh Landing) and later wounded again at Missionary Ridge in Chattanooga, but he survived to be reunited with his family in French Creek.

West Virginia had just joined the Union. The western mountain counties breaking away from the state of Virginia after it had seceded from the USA (Union) and joined the CSA (Confederacy). Here are only a very few of Sirene's representative diary entries:

January 4, 1863. One year ago today what sorrow fell on us; my dear brother Birney died at the hospital in Buckhannon. He belonged to Co E 3d Regt Va Vols. He was one of the many that gave his life to his country. Great excitement here now in the consequence of there being no soldiers on the Creek. Rumor says there is to be some sent up through here this week. I had a letter from James & Lorenzo this week, they are at Winchester now. Did not have any from Watson or Walter. (Her other two brothers).

January 26, 1863. Walter was at home last night, he could not stay but one night. He started for camp this morning, and we may not see him again for some time. William Curry has the smallpox, I think if it spreads we will have something besides war to think of. The war is still raging. It seems that we will know what war is after while, everything is swallowed up in the all absorbing topic war. I do hope we will hear that General McClellan has command of the army again. I think that the President ought to know better than to keep changing the commanders so often. I guess he thinks he is right but I do not. I would like to see him and tell him about it.

July 14, 1863. Good news to day, our army has been victorious in Penn. (Gettysburg) The war will soon be over. Lee's army is badly cut up and good news comes in from every side, enough to make one rejoice I think. The Stars and Stripes are floating over Vicksburg as I hope it soon will be over the whole of the U. S. A. The glorious star spangled banner. Letters from Aunt Elsey, James, and Lorenzo. Some rain last night.

July 6, 1864. Oh who would have believed one week ago that Walter would be a prisoner. He was captured at Green Springs with twelve others of that Co. Oh it is too much to be true. To think my brother will have to suffer in a southern jail, perhaps never see the outside of it. Dreadful thought but we will hope for the best.

December 14, 1864. Oh my dear journal, once again I am called upon to mourn the loss of a beloved brother. We heard to-day that Walter is dead, starved to death by a set of fiends. There may be some mistake, oh if I only knew, this agonizing suspense is worse than certainty. My brother my brother how can I give you up. Our father help us.

April 15, 1865. One short week ago and we were rejoicing over the fall of Richmond, now everything is changed. The nation is shrouded in mourning, for our president was this morning killed, shot dead. O what dreadful news it is to write, words fail me to express the deep sorrow that has fallen on our nation. To think that Abraham Lincoln our President, who has for four years governed us well and wisely, was deliberately shot this morning. Also, Sec. Seward died of sickness this morning. I can hardly realize this great loss it was so sudden.

Sirene Bunten ended her diary in 1866 but made one last entry in 1901:
"The smell of apple blossoms seems to come to me when I have this book. I think it is because I used to write in a window near the apple trees and every spring the sweet perfume came into the rooms. The old home is inhabited by another family and scattered are the friends of youth."

I wonder how many 15 year olds these days could write as well or even be as aware of important happenings as this girl in 1863?

It's difficult to answer that last question. It was also probably quite rare at the time; literacy among women tended to be lower than that among men at the time, and literacy, in general, was less common in the South, especially the rural South than the North.

Slavery was pandemic until the 19th Century, although was actually fairly rare in Europe; it was quite close to universal among settled agricultural communities (estimates are that roughly 40% of the population of the Italian peninsula during the Roman empire were slaves.) By the time of the American Civil War, slavery had been eliminated in the Caribbean (starting in Haiti, the second country to succeed in winning its independence in the Western Hemisphere) except Cuba, all of Latin America except Brazil and (iirc) Cuba. In other words, outside of the US South, the legal (and laws are expressions of a people's ethos and morality) institution of slavery was vanishing: the Southern planter class was finding the majority of the European polities were opposed to slavery, the North was calling for abolition, and the South was surrounded by polities which had forbidden slavery. While the South could force laws concerning escaped slaves upon the North, it could not do so against Britain.

Two (at least) of my great-great grandfathers fought for Union in the Civil War. One, and his wife, died of TB he probably caught while serving. I have his diary in my desk.

 

[manta22]

It's difficult to answer that last question. It was also probably quite rare at the time; literacy among women tended to be lower than that among men at the time, and literacy, in general, was less common in the South, especially the rural South than the North.

Slavery was pandemic until the 19th Century, although was actually fairly rare in Europe; it was quite close to universal among settled agricultural communities (estimates are that roughly 40% of the population of the Italian peninsula during the Roman empire were slaves.) By the time of the American Civil War, slavery had been eliminated in the Caribbean (starting in Haiti, the second country to succeed in winning its independence in the Western Hemisphere) except Cuba, all of Latin America except Brazil and (iirc) Cuba. In other words, outside of the US South, the legal (and laws are expressions of a people's ethos and morality) institution of slavery was vanishing: the Southern planter class was finding the majority of the European polities were opposed to slavery, the North was calling for abolition, and the South was surrounded by polities which had forbidden slavery. While the South could force laws concerning escaped slaves upon the North, it could not do so against Britain.

Two (at least) of my great-great grandfathers fought for Union in the Civil War. One, and his wife, died of TB he probably caught while serving. I have his diary in my desk.

True, but tobacco and cotton kept slavery going in the south. If cotton & tobacco could have been grown in the northern states things might have been different.

 

[swampyankee]

True, but tobacco and cotton kept slavery going in the south. If cotton & tobacco could have been grown in the northern states things might have been different.

There was slavery in the North, but it was never to hold the cultural -- nearly religious -- import in the North as it did in the South, partly because of geography and climate, but also for cultural and religious reasons. Nascent anti-slavery movements started in the 17th Century in New England.

As for products, sugar cane was probably a much bigger factor in slavery's hold. Cane sugar production was very labor intensive, from cutting through sugar manufacture, and really only practical on large plantations. Tobacco could be produced by small farmers.

 

[manta22]

There was slavery in the North, but it was never to hold the cultural -- nearly religious -- import in the North as it did in the South, partly because of geography and climate, but also for cultural and religious reasons. Nascent anti-slavery movements started in the 17th Century in New England.

As for products, sugar cane was probably a much bigger factor in slavery's hold. Cane sugar production was very labor intensive, from cutting through sugar manufacture, and really only practical on large plantations. Tobacco could be produced by small farmers.

Sugar cane was mostly a product of Caribbean Islands, Jamaica, etc. Tobacco was labor intensive, there was much labor still to be done after the crop was harvested.

 

[special ed]

Sugar cane was and still is, though less so, in south Louisiana. Mechanised harvest was not available until the 1970s due to the unusual nature of the crop. I saw many people harvesting and replanting. Cane knives are now collector items and still used in home yard work by those who have them.

 

[Frog]

Along with cane and tobacco, cotton fields were also part of the equation.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I sometimes wonder what the USA would have become today had slavery never existed. Post slavery the British Empire built its commerce upon indentured labour from India. It had its own perils and downside, but everyone got paid. In fact that's how labour was found in the British North American colonies before slavery.

Indentured servitude in British America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Greg Boeser]

I sometimes wonder what the USA would have become today had slavery never existed. Post slavery the British Empire built its commerce upon indentured labour from India. It had its own perils and downside, but everyone got paid. In fact that's how labour was found in the British North American colonies before slavery.

Indentured servitude in British America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I assume you mean "had slavery not been adopted in the American colonies."
Slavery was endemic across most of the world in the 17th and 18th centuries.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I assume you mean "had slavery not been adopted in the American colonies."

Well yes.

 

[GrauGeist]

I sometimes wonder what the USA would have become today had slavery never existed. Post slavery the British Empire built its commerce upon indentured labour from India. It had its own perils and downside, but everyone got paid. In fact that's how labour was found in the British North American colonies before slavery.

Indentured servitude in British America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Uh, no - the British brought African Slaves to North America and the Caribbean.
So did the Spaniards, French, Dutch and Danes.

Britain aboloshished slavery in 1834 - two hundred years after they first brought slaves to North America.