Since this is an international forum,any concern about whats going on in the Ukraine?

[bobbysocks]

And lets not forget Ben Franklins words...."If we give a little liberty, to gain a little security, we will lose them both".

the exact opposite seems to the the axiom of modern day politics...we have to give up a little to be more secure.

 

[GrauGeist]

The sad thing is, things are no better today, then in the days of the Roman Empire.

You would think that 2,000 years later, here in the 21st century, people would have become more civilized, more progressive and less destructive to one another.

 

[Torch]

As long as someone has something that somebody else wants it isn't going to happen,whether it's women,booze,power etc etc there will always be issues.

 

[GrauGeist]

A sad, but true, assessment of the human race...

 

[bobbysocks]

The sad thing is, things are no better today, then in the days of the Roman Empire.

You would think that 2,000 years later, here in the 21st century, people would have become more civilized, more progressive and less destructive to one another.

that seems to be another thing politicians ( and people ) cant grasp...".we are much smarter and wiser today and ought to be able to resolve our differences in a more civilized and peaceful manner". horse hockey! we have new gadgets...higher degrees of knowledge...medical knowhow...blah, blah, blah....for for all that he is, man is the exactly the same creature he was when cain bopped able on the head with a rock. you can dress mankind up but dont expect him to be more than what he is. man, i am getting cynical in my old age.

 

[parsifal]

I listended to an interview on PBS radio last night from a university professor and author (I forget his name) that specialises in Eastern European politics. The gist of what i heard was that The Russians are not interested in occupying the ukraine, with one or two exceptions (like Crimea). He says that what they are looking for is strong Ukraine, but one that is compliant to Russian interests......a client state. The Russians are really upset at the westernization of the Ukraine, and the tipping oint is their application to join NATO.

I noticed on the news service today that Putin says he is pulling back forces from the frontier, and has told the "separatists" not to undertake their referndum on secession. These events of the last 24 hours suggest the lecturer guy might have something.

Sure is a funny way of being friends though....

 

[Torch]

Sources say what Putin is saying is fluff,nobodies moving away from the Ukraine border

 

[vikingBerserker]

It gets more and more interesting.

 

[javlin]

that seems to be another thing politicians ( and people ) cant grasp...".we are much smarter and wiser today and ought to be able to resolve our differences in a more civilized and peaceful manner". horse hockey! we have new gadgets...higher degrees of knowledge...medical knowhow...blah, blah, blah....for for all that he is, man is the exactly the same creature he was when cain bopped able on the head with a rock. you can dress mankind up but dont expect him to be more than what he is. man, i am getting cynical in my old age.

And you literally do a lights out no power no gadgets we are worse off today than 150yrs ago.I would speculate that 1/2 of civilization dies in the first year!with me included most likely in that figure.

 

[Torch]

God forbid an EMP goes off! How the heck will we be able to communicate without texting???

 

[parsifal]

Sources say what Putin is saying is fluff,nobodies moving away from the Ukraine border

yep, overnight the "separatists" say they will go ahead with their pol regardless. NATO reports say there is no evidence as yet of anyy significant Russian pull backs.

 

[GrauGeist]

The thing that I find disturbing, is that a fair share of Russian comments I have seen regarding this situation is that the U.S. is either behind this, or that the U.S. have provoked Russia into making these moves by massing our troops along Russia's border and much more along those lines.

Sure, there's U.S. troops nearby...a few hundred up near Poland and neighboring countries and they came after the fact.

But it's Russians that are that are bolstering the "seperatists", not the CIA and if they consider a few hundred U.S. troops a national threat, well...

It's really frustrating to see people get sucked into wild notions and twisted propaganda.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Some people never let logic or facts get in their way.

 

[The Basket]

Some people never let logic or facts get in their way.

Hand it to Putin.
Big military parade and visits Crimea.
Ha. Peace. No
The West can think again.

 

[javlin]

Hand it to Putin.
Big military parade and visits Crimea.
Ha. Peace. No
The West can think again.

Yep saw that a big slap in the face to the EU and US but nothing is going to happen from our end.

 

[parsifal]

I just dont get it. It makes no sense, from a Russian perspective to de-stabilise the ukraine that it becomes a failed state. I believe the professor when he says the Russians dont want to occupy Ukraine Hungary or Czech style> it makes sense that they want a client state, friendly to them and rejecting western influence. But the way this is panning out, the russians arent doing that. They seem to be pressing this to the bitter end, upending Ukrainian stability to the point that the country descends into civil war. I just dont really see how they (the Russians) think they stand to gain from this.

The only alternative that seems plausible is that the Ukrainians separatists are in fact more independant tan we give them credit for. Ethnic Russians can be pig headed sometimes, even to the point of being irrational about their own welfare....cutting off their nose etc

 

[Torch]

Putin won't back down,if he does he will look weak right now,he'll keep pushing until "he" comes up with the resolution,he will then have gained what ever and will look great in the Russian peoples eyes.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... The only alternative that seems plausible is that the Ukrainians separatists are in fact more independant tan we give them credit for. Ethnic Russians can be pig headed sometimes, even to the point of being irrational about their own welfare....cutting off their nose etc.

Slavic soul, Parsifal, slavic soul.

He (Putin) wants western Ukraine's aerospace capabilities ... he doesn't want the EU to get it.

But watch the money ..... capital is flooding out of the Russian market as fast as it's little green sneakers will take it .....

Putin got Crimea. He has made gains in the east but are they really Putin's gains ...? He will fail to get the remainder ... the country will retain its access to the Black Sea. IMHO.

 

[bobbysocks]

And you literally do a lights out no power no gadgets we are worse off today than 150yrs ago.I would speculate that 1/2 of civilization dies in the first year!with me included most likely in that figure.

i whole heartedly agree. we have "evolved" and became so "civilized" and "modernized" that a large majority of the population would perish without the conveniences. just making a fire to some would be an impossible task. an old college professor of mine said the smarter we make the machines the dumber we get....tis true...tis true.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I think all he is going to end up doing is driving the Ukaine more towards Europe and NATO.