Smithsonian Article plagued by revisionism comments

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by GrauGeist, Aug 3, 2014.

  1. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    A few days ago, Smithsonian posted an article on facebook about the passing of "Dutch" Van Kirk, the last surviving crewmember of the Enola Gay.

    While there were a great outpouring of support and well wished for Van Kirk, the nutjobs started creeping in with their "war crime" rhetoric.

    I actually got into it with some clown who was going along replying to most of the commenters with his "Truman's war crimes" and "Truman's genocide" and pretty much has the idea that WWII was started by Truman.

    As you guys know, I like to stir it up occasionally and get these dimwits all frustrated. I can just envision them yelling at their laptop in some Starbucks somewhere, on the verge of spilling their double-shot latte, with several Google-Chrome windows open to various blogs and chemtrail discussion groups.

    I'll post a copy of my discussion so ya'll can point and laugh:

    David To Zachary Bradford and the others, who are so entrenched in their views of revisionist history and misinformation: the combined atomic bombings of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nothing compared to the conventional bombings of Tokyo, where over 120,000 people perished and another 1.2 million were displaced. Why aren't you beating your chests and ranting over this event?
    And while you're at it, why aren't you ranting and raving about the fact that well over 30,000,000 Chinese perished at the hands of Imperial Japanese occupation?
    Why aren't you ranting and raving about the nearly 800,000 Koreans that perished under Imperial Japanese control?
    Why aren't you ranting and raving about the nearly 1,000,000 Indonesian deaths at the hands of the Japanese?
    Why aren't you ranting and raving about the nearly 200,000 Manchurians that died at the hands of the Japanese?
    Why aren't you ranting and raving about the forced laborers, the brutal treatment of POWs, the confinement of dissidents who had a very short life expectancy under those conditions?
    Why aren't you ranting and raving about the atrocities in other Occupied countries, like Singapore, the Phillipines, Malaya, Polynesian Islands, Saipan, Hong Kong, Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and on and on and on?
    What gives YOU the right to beat your chest and scream war crimes if you have such a little grasp of actual historical events?
    All you're doing, is selectively taking an event that was the culmination of a totalitarian regime's actions and twisting it into some senseless banner to follow while stepping over the corpses of those who were truly sacrificed.
    You should be remembering the suffering and misery of those millions upon millions and honoring their sacrifices so no one EVER has to suffer like that again.
    Shame on you.

    Zachary Bradford Revisionist history? That is exactly what Truman and his administration did after the fact. They knew what they did and worked for the rest of their lives to construct a narrative to help erase the taint. The story of how many American lives saved kept growing. It finally reached a million lives... imagine that.

    Zachary Bradford I do rant and rave about those. However, the Japanese administrations of those times are gone. America however is eerily the same, thus deserving focus.

    David Not hardly, Zachary Bradford...the Japanese military was far from defeated and were prepared to put up a defense even stronger than Iwo Jima and Okinawa. The Japanese public were training and had been training for defense of home soil.
    An invasion of mainland Japan would see every man, woman and child putting their lives on the line and fight to the death.
    It was estimated that a conventional invasion of Japan would have meant the war lasting into spring on 1946...so how many more deaths by Allied and Japanese would that account for?
    The Japanese were not ready to surrender and it wasn't until the Emperor's voice was heard on the radio (for the first time), telling the people that the war was over, did they accept defeat.
    Don't fall for the conspiracy/revisionist BS, stick to the hard facts and preserve history so that we may learn from it...to do otherwise opens Pandora's box and we doom ourselves to repeat these horrors over and over again.

    Zachary Bradford You are echoing the exact propaganda narrative Truman's administration pushed for twenty years after trying absolve itself of taint and genocide. The revisionist stuff is the account you are stating. We had no reason to invade Japan and we were negotiating with japan at the time. Russia was starting its invasion and Japan was under siege and done. It was a simple waiting game. Truman can say whatever but there is no way to remove the stain of genocide. The world knows it but I guess good old patriotic Americans will never see outside of the box constructed for them.

    David No, Zachary Bradford, you are drivelling the revisionist slop that spills out of every other blog and coffeehouse, spearheaded by disenchanted internet activists and tin-foil hat dimwits. You cannot blame the U.S. for ever ill the world has ever suffered, no matter how much you wish it were true.
    The U.S. did not kill all the dinosaurs, the U.S. did not topple the Roman Empire, the U.S. did not kill Ghandi and the U.S. did not start WWII.
    WWII Europe was a result of the despair and ruin that Europe was left in following WWI...WWII in the Pacific had been building for several generations, also as a result of WWI. With brutal Japanese expansion in Southeast Asia, the U.S. started a limitation of oil and iron exports to Japan, who was a major consumer of those U.S. exports. They took that as an affront and an insult and ultimately this led to Pearl Harbor.
    Zachary Bradfor, true history is a hell of a thing and can be far more fascinating that watching for UFOs and following blogs, try picking up a real history book sometime and read it, you may be surprised. At the very least you may learn something...well, perhaps I am being too optimistic in your case...

    And there ya' have it (so far) but this clown is pretty persistent and I am expecting a reply sometime soon. A couple of my favorites from him would be:
    We had no reason to invade Japan and we were negotiating with japan at the time - did anyone bother to inform the Japanese about this? :lol:
    The story of how many American lives saved kept growing. It finally reached a million lives... imagine that - I suppose it's a little late to tell him there were other countries that fought against the Japanese?
    I guess good old patriotic Americans will never see outside of the box constructed for them - Da comrade, patriotic American is to be puppet of state :lol:

    And there ya' have it...anyone (with a FB account) that wants to check the rest out, here's the link to the Smithsonian article at FB:
    https://www.facebook.com/smithsonianmagazine/posts/10152321127878253?comment_id=10152324613318253

    And here's the Smithsonian article at Smithsonian Mag:
    History, Travel, Arts, Science, People, Places | Smithsonian
     
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  2. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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    If I may dare to comment about the topic, it's interesting for me to see not only a winner blames a loser but a winner, even if he is a revisionist, blames another winner among the same group for decades when a loser doesn't blame a winner as the loser has to think about the future.

    Yes, it's interesting.
     
  3. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty weird Dave. Unfortunately, with the internet, anyone with a hair-brained, half-back idea, can convince a few more morons, and then it snowballs(I think America had something to do with the dinosaurs.)

    Geo
     
  4. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Good going, you know the NSA saw that, right?
     
  5. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Zach is a moron. Good thing he does not hang out in these parts.
     
  6. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    oh boy, where to start. Ther was no crime at the time to attacking legitimate miliatary targets, and no crime to what me might refer to as "collateral damage. There is now I might add. war crimes back then related to deliberate targetting of civilians, in which there was no legitimate military potential. BCs area bombing and Dresden were closer to this definition than Hiroshima ever was. but even then, the British were attacking for a military purpose aty least, and not simply revenge or torture.

    The morals of war. Its an oxymoron in many ways....unlike this guys who is just a plain moron
     
  7. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

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    If he did, it wouldn't be for long! :)
     
  8. Mobius

    Mobius Member

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    Do some of those people have relatives that fought (on the allied side) in WWII? I found letters my dad, who passed a few months ago, wrote to his parents while he was in the service during WWII. His ship, was in port at the time of the end of the war having their 20mm AA guns replace by more powerful 40mm AA guns because they expected to be dealing with desperate air attacks during a future invasion of Japan.

    One little nugget he wrote I never heard before is that he wasn't expecting liberty that weekend because of the end-of-the-war riot that went on when victory was announced.
     
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  9. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    I quote David Jablownski's "Wings of Fire" many times in an assessment of Japanese military strength in July of 1945; they still had plenty of fight left. Japanese leadership had feelings from "No surrender" to "One last glorious battle." A mainland battle would have been horrible and IMO the atomic bombings were the lesser of two evils.
     
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  10. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    They , or rather their fossil remains, were planted by the evolutionists to support their theory. Everyone knows that the earth was created in 4004 BC the Archbishop of Armagh proved it using the bible back in the 17th century.

    There's plenty of people who think he was right !

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  11. Lucky13

    Lucky13 Forum Mascot

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    On a Friday!
     
  12. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    #12 GrauGeist, Aug 4, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
    And here's the latest round! :lol:

    And not wanting to let this golden opportunity get past me, I responded:

    Ohh...a revisionist shot down by the professionals of revisionism!! Damn, that's gotta suck! :evil4:
     
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  13. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad you qualified that.

    According to the OKH weapons office Dresden contained 127 factories important enough to be accorded their own three letter manufacturing codes, for example Zeiss-Ikon was given the code dpv. There were many more smaller factories and workshops which were not assigned codes, according to the Dresden City Museum.

    The 1942 Dresdner Jahrbuck boasted

    "Anyone who knows Dresden only as a cultural city, with its important architectural monuments and unique landscape environment, would rightly be very surprised to be made aware of the extensive and versatile industrial activity, with all its varied ramifications, that make Dresden one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich."

    That's a German assessment.

    I could list many of these companies and what they made. Take Richard Gabel Son. A small company operating from two premises it had originally made machines for making waffles and marzipan. It's report to the regional armaments command (Rustungskommando) of March 1944 showed that by then 96% of its output was destined for the Wermacht, including torpedo parts for the navy. There were hundreds of such firms in Dresden

    Bomber Command was not 'very surprised' and knew all about Dresden. This is quite separate to its role as a crucial transport link, immediately behind the advancing Russian front. Dresden was not only one of the largest regional directorates but also a key junction through which ran both the north-south and east-west axes of the German railway network.

    It was a far more valuable and arguably valid target than some others destroyed in the latter stages of the war.

    The principle reasons for the relatively large death toll (around 25,000) were twofold. Firstly there were many refugees in the city but secondly and more importantly air raid precautions, particularly the provision of public shelters, was woeful. The blame for this lies firmly with the local government and Gauleiter Mutschmann.

    The second wave of aircraft also bombed the margins of the original target area on the instructions of the master bomber who could see no point in adding more explosives and incendiaries to the initial firestorm. This undoubtedly killed many who had fled the city centre to avoid the earlier bombing. The assigned aiming point for the second wave had been the Altmarkt but this had lain within 5 Group's bombing sector and was already a sea of flame.

    Steve
     
  14. Mobius

    Mobius Member

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    Well, there you go. It was done to slow global warming from coal using carbon spewing industries. Is there anything more important to civilization then to stop global warming?
     
  15. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Depends whether you believe how much of it is down to us (man made) and how much is entirely normal :)

    The point was that revisionism is rife and the Dresden raid has been as much an object of it as many others. In the case of Dresden this was at least partly self inflicted by the British themselves.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  16. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    #16 GrauGeist, Aug 4, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
    The thing that really gets me angry, though, is how these new age revisionists scream "war crimes" and "genocide" at Allied actions while dismissing the Axis accounts. I am at a loss as to what thought process they are using to come to these conclusions.

    I recently saw a post (yep, on facebook) of a photo of a Japanese crewman (officer) being shot at in the water by the crew of a U.S. submarine. It was during an attempt to rescue Japanese sailors from a ship that had been sunk and the American sailors were able to rescue a few Japanese sailors, but several refused to be helped and at one point, a Japanese officer started firing at the Americans with his sidearm. The Americans returned fire with the MG and this was all recorded with a movie camera. The photo in the above mentioned post showed the Japanese officer being shot and the discussion was the "American atrocities and genocide against the Japanese" and the photo's caption was: "proof of horrific war crimes committed by the Americans".

    When I hear things like that, It brings to mind cold-war propeganda and intentional distortion of facts to sway public sentiment.
     
  17. Mobius

    Mobius Member

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    That is partly a result of logic. When Germans were bombing and rocketing cities it was a horrible crime against civilians. Yet, the excuse for bombing German cities was they produced goods and services for their military. German civilian hands that could cook food for or cloth German soldiers were fair game. As were houses and buildings that could serve to shelter Germans in military uniform. Thus undermining the idea that civilians should not be the target of attacks.
     
  18. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    German civilians, or workers as they are euphemistically called, were an implicit target authorised in various directives following the infamous Area Bombing Directive (General Directive No.5) of February 1942.

    There was a lot of discussion and brow beating leading up to this and a lot of euphemistic language used consequently, but the bombing of the German civilian population was authorised.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  19. freebird

    freebird Active Member

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    Indeed, though times opinions have changed and in today's world, dropping an A-bomb on Gaza or Belgrade or Tehran or Baghdad would be seen as a horrific war crime, regardless of the "military value" of the target.

    There's the simple answer right there, it was the alternative that would incur the least number of civilian casualties.
     
  20. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    But as we can see, the revisionist/conspiracy movement doesn't see it as simple as that, they see it like this:
    Now if Hiroshima and Nagasaki were conventionally bombed instead of atomic bombed, you can be sure that the focus would be on the incendiary bombing of Tokyo and use the same "war crimes", "genocide" and "atrocities" that they are using for the atomic bombings.
     
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