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.I have no idea why we can't learn the lesson for good and produce primary fighters that have a gun, great rearward visibility, and can turn, climb, and accelerate with the best ever made. Go ahead and add the missiles and avionics but at LEAST give us a good fighter airframe to work with. I'd rather send in more good fighters with fewer bombs on them than fewer bomb trucks that can't fight when they need to. Alternately, send in the drones to bomb and fight fighters with FIGHTERS. I wouldn't trust a drone in a dogfight because it has never yet been demonstrated they can identify friendlies within a snap shot in a dogfight. We are too busy trying to make them attack well and can't seem to concentrate on making them into good fighters with discrimination abilities that make friendly manned aircraft safe. I couldn't care less if the drones shoot each other down, but would blow them all up with no regrets if they kill a friendly pilot. I KNOW they will sooner or later. The only reason it hasn't happened to date is we haven't made drone fighters and deployed them yet. We're mighty quick to say we have it figured out and then the machines go and verify the software in service. When there is a glitch, it usually hurts someone
I keep seeing the subject of dogfighting popping up in the discussion and I have to wonder, when was the last time two modern opposing fighters actually engaged in a 20th century style furball?
With the modern systems and stand-off capabilities, enabling a kill beyond or at max-visual, why is the issue of a dog-fighter looming so large in the judgement of the F-35? Isn't it possible that the F-35 may detect hostiles inbound long before they get into range and the pilots react accordingly?
I really suspect that the threadworn commentary of the F-35 versus F-16 keeps tilting public sentiment. That encounter was so skewed and one-sided, it shouldn't have even been put into print and yet, it was and the news just ate it up. The reality of it all, is that the F-16 ONLY had the upper hand on the F-35 in that encounter, because the F-35 in question was actually the test and trials airframe: AF-2. It did not have the advanced electronics, it did not have the flight upgrades of the later production airframes and it did not have the pilot's enhanced helmet system onboard. So yes, the F-16 got the better of it, because AF-2 is not, nor will it ever be, combat capable. We cannot set the bar of the F-35's absolute performance by the performance of a prototype.
This would be like judging all P-51 production aircraft by the performance of the NA-73X.
Hey Joe,
Hope Reno was good. I am in the middle of getting a job and couldn't attend. Hope you had a great time! Sorry you didn't get to see a good duel between Voodoo and Strega, but one year out of seven for Stevo to have engine issues ins't bad considering the power levels they put out. Maybe next time! If Stevo had to lose, I can't think of a better, nicer guy than Hoot to win. Glad to see the Bear back running healthy, too. Maybe you could give us a "Reno Summary Post" since YOU were there and on a team? Just from your viewpoint?
.I can remember back during one of the numerous exercises we had with the Americans....Kitty hawk I think it was. We had a mixed force of F-111s, F-4s and A-4s taking on a CAG of F-14s and F-4s. We also had several Oxley class subs to play with. It was assumed that we had harpoon capability (which we didn't). The Americans came charging across the ocean twice for the same exercise. first time, Melbourne put the hammers down and ran like crazy, to bring the Kitty hawk into Harpoon range. cheeky sub skipper sent a message to the 'blue' fleet, with the blessing of the onboard referee......"oops." It was judged the Kitty Hawk had had its superstructure remodelled with 6 harpoons apparently. so we re-set the exercise and did it again. this time feints were made by the f-111s and f-4s with stand off weaponary so as to draw the CAP away and also pull the air defence assets to one side of the fleet. Ive seen the footage of our A-4s coming in at wavetop height with just bombs only and deliver another attack in the simulation, this time from the other direction. low tech, high skill, and deadly according to the refs.
50 years of twin engined carrier fighters and attack jets says you are wrong.
I don't know how many years I admit but the A7, F8, A4 and Harrier operations let alone F9 Panther, F9 Cougar and F86 naval fighters probably top your totals covering the first naval jet aircraft to the present day. Then if you throw in the Seahawk, various French naval aircraft fighters would prove to most people that single engine naval operations are quite feasible.
You make statements but without evidence and don't address any questions with facts, just more statements. The above list shows that the single engine naval fighter has a place in the front line as does the twin engine fighter. To insist otherwise is simply absurd.
Anyone with any knowledge of aviation would agree that training aircraft have a very tough life. They cycle more landings that any other type, the pilots are not fully trained, they tend to have more hard lands as a result and the engines are operated less smoothly than with fully trained pilots, but what do the USN use, yes you've guessed it, a single engine aircraft.
These are facts and are without question accurate. now if you can supply facts, not statements then we can have a debate.
Feel free to prove our facts wrong, the ball is firmly in your court
http://asmameeting.org/asma2013_mp/pdfs/asma2013_present_469.pdfIs there any way, to figure out, of those single engined lost in combat, due to any and whatever reason, would have made their way home and landed safely (somewhat) to be repaired and fight another day, had they had a second engine?
Just curious, nothing else....
Great thread, not much for modern jets, but I'm all for learning, which you're never to old for!
Let me simplify it.
For naval aircraft, fighters and attack:
Two engines gives you more thrust to safely launch from a catapult.
Two engines lets you carry more payload when launched from a catapult.
Two engines gives you the ability to get back to home or a safe place if the other engine starts acting up.
the same MAY happen in a larger and more costly twin engine aircraftLosing a single engine means you're going down. And inevitably it will be over the ocean in bad weather, high waves and in cold water. Not good for the pilot. And lots of twin engined naval aircraft have returned back to their carrier on one engine.
And the US Navy used them extensively. They had one of the best operational records during the Vietnam war.Since the F4 entered the fleet in the early 60's, all fighter and attack designs have been twin engines. And as I noted multiple times, the A7 was designed from the onset as for light attack and low cost.
By who's definition, yours?All of the single engined aircraft you mentioned; they were all cheap and disposable.
How convenient!Products of a different age. I will not include the Harrier in the mix because it has a unique mission. And the F35 is probably a good fit for the marines, if solely because of what its requirements are.
The F-100 Super Sabre and the F-100 Voodoo (A and C variants) were powered by the Pratt Whitney J57 turbojet engine. Both aircraft were used as fighter bombers in the USAF, flying similar missions.
Similarly, the F-101 Delta Dart interceptor......