Some Sturmbock questions

Discussion in 'Aircraft Requests' started by donnerherz, Dec 4, 2007.

  1. donnerherz

    donnerherz New Member

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    Hello to everybody,

    I´m working on some Fw190 Sturmbock skins (Il2 1946) for myself to get nice detailed and (as near as possible) historical correct echelons for the game.

    For this reason I require some answers to the following questions:

    1. Did the wellknown Sturmstaffel 1-aircraft "White 14" piloted by Oskar Boesch have an yellow painted undercowling (like usually all Sturmstaffel 1 aircraft) or not (as shown on all profiles I´ve discovered in the web)?
    Did all Sturmstaffel aircraft carry the large badge on the left cowling side or not or were there certain examples which did carry no badge or one on both sides?

    2. Was the "Black 8" (Willi Maximowitz) from 11./JG3 in Spring 1944 the only aircraft in this Staffel which had red outlined "exhaust eagles" (and black/yellow spinner) not matching the official Staffel color (white outlined eagles and black/white spinners)?

    3. As far as I know there are the following certainly known Sturmbock aircraft of 11./JG3 with white fuselage bands and ~:
    Black 2, Black 8 (Maximowitz), Black 9, Black 12, Black 13 (Gerth).
    Did the "Black 14" from Oskar Boesch exist in this painting, too?
    I´ve discovered a profile from Thierry Dekker showing "Black 12" with black numerals without white outlining and partially overpainted white fuselage band, dated "late June, 1944". Is this profile correct? And did a "Black 7" exist in this paint scheme, too? Are there more certainly known aircraft of 11./JG3 with this colors?

    4. As far as I know there were the following (known for certain) Sturmbock aircraft of 10./JG3 with white fuselage bands and ~:
    White 1 (Weik?), white 7 (Weik?), white 9, white 12, white 13.
    Are there more certain aircraft of this Staffel with this color scheme?

    5. Did the "yellow 17" of 12./JG3 (often referred to as Willi Ungers aircraft but what is wrong) with white fuselage band and ~ really exist?

    A lot of difficult questions - I know. I hope some of you have some answers to them.

    Thank you very much for all your efforts, greetings from Germany, Don
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    so many questions. first it is not known precisely if Oskar flew Weiße 14 in Sturmstaffel 1, I have found this may not have been exactly true. not all Sturms had the badge but most did. all had the s/w/s fuselage band worn. no yellow painted undercowling and not all Sturmstaffel 1 a/c did either.

    for Maxi that may not have been his usual a/c as he flew 4-5 different ones, this a/c is not really even a sturm A-8 as it was used on jabo missions in Normandie and then armored up in an upgrade., the yellow stripe would of indicated 12th staffel machine and the spinner stripe was removed and later painted over white as all the a/c of the gruppe later in August of 44.

    june of 44 all 11th staffel machines had the wide white band and none painted over that came later in July end and into August before all the colors were painted out and new a/c came into the gruppe. each staffel had 15 a/ac according to Strum JG 3 vets. 1-15 so all the ones you have named existed.

    Weik in an interview told us he never flew a white 1 and that he felt he would of been found out by US P-51 pilots and shot down.

    not sure why all the camouflage scheme questions as the whole gruppe was pretty much the same with slight variations in tone on the fuselage. the whole colours were in June/July of 44 during the first Sturm missions. after their airfield had been blown to pieces at Memmingen in mid-July of 44 the bright distinctive colours were withdrawn and the a/c were left to decompose in the weather and high altitude missions. new a/c coming into the gruppe to replace the shot down ones were left in the typical 1944 two-tone greys and white spiralschnauze on the prop.

    Ungers 3 17 in may of 44 was not his as the photo is a propaganda one. I have 6 photos different from Willi in fact a copy of all his photos from his album, some very unusual ones as well with including a special number black 8 Sturm he is standing in front of. yellow 17 with the stupid rear facing rocket mortar had a white band with a ~ over it. the band again was standard with the IV.th gruppe ~ marking from May as the unit transferred out its Bf 109G-6's to Fw 190A-8 and A-8/R2's. In Willi's logbuch he does fly a different A-8/R2 fully loaded Sturmjäger numbered Gelbe 17.

    here is what happened in June at the end and through July of 44 before all the 4 staffels had the same a/c in the same camo and the only difference was their staffel number colors.

    11th staffel black adlerflugel with white trim and white spiral, black solid numbers, some but very few had white trim
    12th staffel black adlerflugel with yellow trim and yellow spiral, solid yellow numerals
    13th staffel had the same as 11ths staffel except white numerals solid
    2./JG 51 had red trim on the eagle with red stripe on the spiral, red solid numerals, this later as it became the 16th staffel of the gruppe removed the red from everything and the black eagle wing exhaust camo and just had red numbers only.

    there are many variations just like the propaganda photo of Schwarze 8 that has W. Maximowitz riding in for the camera crew in June of 44.

    there is more of course, purchase Dr. Jochen Priens IV./JG 3 from Struve Druck Verlag in Eutin, Germany for more though black and white pics, but you can see how the Sturm a/c changed in camo over the weeks in the summer of 44.

    Don you owe me a very large Deutsche Bier for all of this....... :D or maybe a Christstollen for Weihnachten

    anymore questions I will gladly try and help and try not to confuse you....
     
  3. donnerherz

    donnerherz New Member

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    Hallo Erich,

    thank you very much for quickly answering the many questions I had!

    Because of my incomplete school english (I´m now 44) I`m not sure that I understood all of your answers correct so I have to ask you again some more quests, sorry!

    1. Am I right that you mean that not all Sturmstaffel aircaft had yellow undercowlings? Did this practice follow any strict rules (unit leaders?)?
    2. Do you know certain aircraft (for example "white 14") which carrys the large badge on either side of the cowling?
    3. With "paint scheme" oder "color scheme" I didn´t mean the camo colors but the kind of numerals/fuselage band/adlerflügel, sorry that was my fault.
    4. "Maximowitz´" a/c: you wrote of a "yellow stripe" - do you mean the adlerflügel trim (which is shown on "Black 8" everywhere in red not yellow) or the spinner spiral? Do you know why this distinctive aircraft wore this (unique?) strange color combination (red adlerflügel trim/yellow spinner spiral)?
    5. You wrote of 11., 12. and 13./JG3. I thought IV./JG3 in the spring 1944 consists of 10. (white), 11. (black) and 12. (yellow) and that the adlerflügel trim and spinner spiral of 10. and 11. except numerals were identical. Am I wrong?
    6. Did the a/c of 2./JG51 also carry the white fuselage band with ~?

    Questions over questions - hope you can help me again!
    Thanks a lot - a german maß bier and a christstollen for your help is no problem but how bringing it to you?

    Greetings from germany, Don
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Guten morgen from my little home to yours Don

    # 1 you are correct not all Fw 190A's had the yellow under engine cowling marking. it was suppose to be used for Identification but that is why Kornatzki had the s/w/s tail band on the fuselage for a special ID marking.

    # 2 Weiße 14 had the badge on the left side only

    # 3 yes the sepcial markings were for all the 3 staffels Fw 190's until august of 44 when they were removed. what was suppose to happen was the 11,12 and 13th stafflen were suppose to receive the colours for the spinner, the adlerflugeln, the blue-black motohaube, the white fuselage band with the ~ over it for IVth gruppe marking.

    # 4 Schwarze 8 had the red trim over the Adlerflugel, the yellow stripe on the spinner prop. highly unusual and mixed up really, and no I do know the reason as I wish I did.....as I said in the first posting the colours were then modified and then used for all the a/c. this black 8 later had white stripe on the spinner and a white stripe on the Adlerflugel, also had the Scheuklappen added to the canopy.

    # 5 10th and 11th staffel Fw 190A's looked the same except the nummers which for the 10th staffel were white and the 11th staffel black.

    # 6 for 2./JG 51 yes they were originally suppose to fly Hohenjäger or the other 3 staffels but that is not what happened. they had red trim and nummers and yes a white band with ~ over it.

    again for August of 44 the colours are gone or faded out and repainted over and just the nummer colours made each staffel different.

    Don wish I could come over for a visit and explain this much easier to you with fotos using the net helps but still hard to understand.

    hey send me a Stollen via air mail ......... 8) I'll wait till I get to Germany for the Maß :D
     
  5. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Was ist das Scheuklappen in English plaese.:notworthy:
     
  6. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    translation is : "blinkers"

    look behind Willi's head in the pic and you can see the armored glas on the canopy

    [​IMG]

    IV.Sturm/JG 3
     
  7. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Erich, I have the book "Sturmstaffel 1: Reich Defense 1943-1944 The War Diary" by Eric Mombeek. Is this a good reference book for him?
     
  8. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Danke Erich.
    Now I understand.In Polish these added armored glasses are called "konskie okulary"THX again.

    BTW Cool pic !!!!
     
  9. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Njaco it's the only book so far written but there is another one on it's way that will also cover 11th and 14th Sturm/JG 3 in the future

    here is a shot of 14.Sturm/JG 3 in the fall of 44, nearly everyone and in fact only 3 of these guys survived the war. from the article in SAM that Neil put up, Neil did a great job of writing and filling in a definate need in magazine form, I supplied a bit of research and a pic or two..........

    [​IMG]

    note the chap on the right wearing only the summer -Lederjacke, friend O. Bösch and that is his SturmFw, Schwarze 14 in the background.

    E ~
     
  10. donnerherz

    donnerherz New Member

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    Thank you so much, Erich, for the bunch of kind answers to my quests, which I do understand now, let me know your adress and the christstollen will ship to you.

    Greetings from Germany, Don
     
  11. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    I hope this helps you understand better Don, please ask more questions if you would like as it helps my old brain stay clear

    sent you a private pm message, and where are you located in Deutschland ?

    E ~
     
  12. donnerherz

    donnerherz New Member

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    Hello Erich,

    at the moment I have only the two questions left for you:

    1. Is it correct to say that at least Sturmbocks numbered 1 til 15 did exist either of the "white numerals" Staffel and the "red numerals" Staffel (2./JG51) in spring 1944?
    1a. :) Can you show me a picture/link of one or more correct color profiles of Sturmbocks from 2./JG51 (for example piloted by Klaus Neumann)?

    Thanks a lot and greetings from germany, Don
     
  13. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    white numbers with no black outline for 10th staffel, later the 13th in August of 1944. Red numbers for 2./JG 51, later the 16th Sturmstaffel. each staffel had up to 15 a/c. though I was told by several pilot friends that normally only 10-12 flew on the missions while the others were in the sop getting overhauled and or patched up due to aerial action in combat.

    there are NO profiles that I know of showing 2./JG 51 or 16th staffel SturmFw's.

    Klaus Neumann retreated into himself after the war and with very little contact to any historians, but did say he had much regret for taking so many American lives. He lived alone and then in an old foster day care center in Germany before he died. It is reported the man had a huge photo album of his time in IV.Sturm/JG 3 and as far as we know no-one had ever seen his photos. I can only make a guess that his Familie took the photos and burned them or threw them away as they have not been printed in any books........again this is what I have been told back in the 1990's.

    E ~
     
  14. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Don for a good reference go here to my friend Neil's site

    enter and then go down towards the bottom mentioning the Sturmgruppen from our old web-pages we used to have on the net......... it may help understand further

    Kaczmarek: a German view of the war in the air

    note the colour foto of the I./JG 300 Bf 109G-6
     
  15. donnerherz

    donnerherz New Member

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    Hello Erich,

    did the Fw190 Sturmbocks of 2./JG51 in spring of 1944 wear a (JG3?) unit badge?

    If I understood you correctly these a/c had black/red spinners, red eagle wing trim and red solid numerals and the white fuselage band with ~.

    Greetings and thanks for the infos and the link which I did already know, Don.
     
  16. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Don I wished you could have viewed and maybe you did some years ago our "Sturmgruppen missions 1944"

    your question is a tough one to answer since I have not seen a 2./JG 51 SturmFw in the colours of red stripes on the spinner and Adlerflugel. only an August 1944 photo showing the red number, the motorhaube was painted in the usual greys, the colors had been removed.

    they should of had the red trim in Junes end through July before it was all removed and repainted or new a/c came in like I had said without any colours but painted up like any other Fw 190A in the ETO defense of the Reich.

    to your first question yes they should of had the JG 3 winged U on the blue-black Motorhaube on both sides as well of the engine cowling.

    E ~
     
  17. donnerherz

    donnerherz New Member

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    Hello again Erich,

    here I´m back with new questions referring to the fighter escort a/c of IV./JG3 in June and July of 1944.

    I`ve read that there was a "Höhenbegleitjäger" (high altitude escort fighters) escort unit consisted of Bf109G-6/AS to give top cover for the sturms of IV./JG3.
    These a/c were painted overall in plain white color with black or yellow solid numbers.
    In other sources I´ve read from two IV./JG3 "Begleitgruppen" (escort wings) of I./JG300 commanded by Gerhard Stamp and of II./JG300 commanded by Kurt Peters.
    Did all three units provide top cover for the sturms of IV./JG3 in June/July of 1944?
    As far as I know II./JG300 was a Sturmgruppe equipped with the heavyweighted and rather unmanouverable Fw190 sturmbocks only - totally unsuitable for providing fighter escort?

    Thanks a lot again and greetings from germany, Don
     
  18. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    first Sturm./JG 3 never flew ops in June of 44 against the US A/F they were involved in ground attack missions in Normandie and then retreated back into Germany to perfect the Sturm-like tactics that made them and II.Sturm/JG 300 famous.

    Sturmstaffel 1 had Bf 109G-6/AS fighters fly top cover for them in April-May of 44 the 109's were painted a very faded blue-white-grey. It was all of I./JG 3 that had 3 staffeln, white, black and yellow numbers on their 109's.

    Gerhard Stamp who commanded I./JG 300 came up with the official idea of a high cover gruppe for JG 300 and IV./JG 3 as a Gefechtsverband attack with his gruppe flying a 1000 feet higher and slightly back behind the Fw's when approaching the rear of the US heavy bomber formations, of course they were to attack and engage any US fighter escorts and when none were in the air which was rare they would attack from aobve and slightly below on the bombers.

    they flew a mix of G-6 and G-6/AS fighters.

    II.Sturm/JG 300 was just like IV.Sturm/JG 3 in that the Fw's were heavily armored but did have regular A-8's flown by pilots that did not want the heavier model. during a mission there was always one staffel of the gruppe that flew a higher protective op though they always attacked the bombers as well.

    verstehen ?

    E ~
     
  19. donnerherz

    donnerherz New Member

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    Hello Erich, so the first link shows the wrong a/c "Höhenbegleitjäger" Bf109G-6/AS of IV./JG3, right?

    http://www.rafiger.de/Homepage/FBMuseum/Info-JG3Udet/Bilder/Schwarm-Bf109-G6AS-JG3.jpg

    And the second link shows the correct escort fighters of Sturmstaffel 1?

    http://www.rafiger.de/Homepage/FBMuseum/Info-JG4/Profile/Bf-109-IV-JG3.jpg

    The correct escort fighters of IV./JG3 in July 44 were Bf109G-6 of I./JG300 (with the red fuselage band), and some regular A8s of II./JG300, right?

    Thank you very much, Don
     
  20. seesul

    seesul Active Member

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    Oh, what a pity Erich! Do you know if Klaus had any children?
     
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