Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Food for a new thread 
Kris
Kris
Soviet aircraft the west coulda/shoulda used?
- Thread starter claidemore
- Start date
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Nice idea, but I'm sure it's been done.
hehe, as a follow up I was just picturing the RLM trying to counter Soviet tactics from 43. A bunch of Prussian retirees sitting around saying stuff like, Hey, their women are putting grenades in bread loaves, that's not fair.
And in typical German fashion invent a new cannon type designed to penetrate bakery ovens from 2000m.
hehe, as a follow up I was just picturing the RLM trying to counter Soviet tactics from 43. A bunch of Prussian retirees sitting around saying stuff like, Hey, their women are putting grenades in bread loaves, that's not fair.
And in typical German fashion invent a new cannon type designed to penetrate bakery ovens from 2000m.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
LOL !!!
Kris
Kris
Why not five of them?
from:
Èíòåðâüþ ñ Â.Â.Òèòîâè÷åì
On his 3rd mission, Titovitch's Il-2 recieved 5 37 mm FlaK bullets, but managed to return to the airfield near MGA, Leningrad vicinity.
VG
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
I see two impacts. Where were the other 3 ?
Kris
Kris
MrCreak
Airman
Looks like there's a hole through the port wing root/ flap and another large mess in what's left of the starboard aileron.
Interestingly the hole through the port root looks (from the "lips" around the hole) as if the round went in through the top of the wing...
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
The two I saw seem to be the result of the explosion/blast while the one at the wing root just went straight through (as it probably didn't go in from above ).
As such the only way it could have survived 5 shells was if they didn't all detonate...
Kris
).As such the only way it could have survived 5 shells was if they didn't all detonate...
Kris
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
The control surfaces look to all the world to be made of canvas.
If that's the case it will undoubtedly explain the shells not detonating.
Thing is, how do you goad a barge full of scrap-iron around the sky with canvas control surfaces?
If that's the case it will undoubtedly explain the shells not detonating.
Thing is, how do you goad a barge full of scrap-iron around the sky with canvas control surfaces?
Clay_Allison
Staff Sergeant
- 1,154
- Dec 24, 2008
Not the same round, not all mm's of ordnance are created equal.Why not five of them?
from:
Èíòåðâüþ ñ Â.Â.Òèòîâè÷åì
On his 3rd mission, Titovitch's Il-2 recieved 5 37 mm FlaK bullets, but managed to return to the airfield near MGA, Leningrad vicinity.
VG
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
While the damage sustained to that aircraft and the fact that it returned to its base is commendable, it seemed most of the hits it received went through fabric control surfaces taking out some ribs and stringers. There were enough of the control surfaces left to sustain flight obviously.
With that said I doubt the damage would have been that same if the round found its mark squarely on the empennage or at the wing root.
With that said I doubt the damage would have been that same if the round found its mark squarely on the empennage or at the wing root.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
More than likely Irish Linen or Cotton.
Condora
Airman 1st Class
German pilots had the same problem with Hurricanes: the bullet went through the airplane and came out on the other side, just punching a hole in it...
And there were other airplanes using some kind of fabric.
Below is an Wellington, but the result is the same: skin went off, but the airplane made it back...
Sorry, the pic doesn't show, you can check it where I saw it...
http://www.answers.com/topic/vickers-wellington
And there were other airplanes using some kind of fabric.
Below is an Wellington, but the result is the same: skin went off, but the airplane made it back...
Sorry, the pic doesn't show, you can check it where I saw it...
http://www.answers.com/topic/vickers-wellington
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Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
The reason alot of Wimpeys came back from a beating was much more likely due to its structure rather than the doped-linen skinning
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
I don't know, I would say it had to be a combination of both. Wasn't that structure developed by Barnes-Wallis?? What's it called again??
Kris
Kris
Condora
Airman 1st Class
Geodesic.
Wonder if that kind of construction could be used on a fighter...
Large "holes" in the structure (bomb bay, e.g.) made it weaker, but a fighter doesn't have them.
Wonder if that kind of construction could be used on a fighter...
Large "holes" in the structure (bomb bay, e.g.) made it weaker, but a fighter doesn't have them.
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
lol not quite - geodesic is the 'giant golf ball' structure built around some satellite earth stations and, believe it or not, modern soccer balls. Pioneered by Buckminster-Fuller I believe.
the Wimpey used a geodetic structure, pioneered by Barnes Wallis.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Hello,
With google translator and dictionnary:
On it's 3rd mission, first war day Titovitch's Il-2 was hit by 5 37 mm shells. Broken depth rudder, destroyed right wing spar, broken right aileron, right canon pulled out, broken back cabin armour plates. A lot of small splinters damaged wings and fuselage.
From the pilot itself "... i was the forth of our zveno (fingerfour) platoon, the last plane was usually coming under ennemy fire: germans had a 37 mm automatic gun in this aera feed by cartiges (of five). All the german did, it's to press the pedal and "blam, blam, blam,blam, blam, all in my plane..."
All the shells exploded of course, but partly outside of the plane. The Il-2 wooden monocoque structure (and moreover fabric covered one) was often too soft for 37 mm flak bullets (crossing through the structure, expoding outside) and the bathtub too hard (bullets were exploding too early this time, limiting destruction effects). Sometines even the bathtub was broken in pieces, engine reminded damaged but still in working condition. In fact the bathtub distruction eating some cinetic and blowing energy was limiting on it's turn bullet and splinters penetration inside the engine block.
That mean the Il-2 far from being indestructible was perfectly able to withstand sometimes a full 37 mm AA Flak hit on it's armor.
Regards
With google translator and dictionnary:
On it's 3rd mission, first war day Titovitch's Il-2 was hit by 5 37 mm shells. Broken depth rudder, destroyed right wing spar, broken right aileron, right canon pulled out, broken back cabin armour plates. A lot of small splinters damaged wings and fuselage.
From the pilot itself "... i was the forth of our zveno (fingerfour) platoon, the last plane was usually coming under ennemy fire: germans had a 37 mm automatic gun in this aera feed by cartiges (of five). All the german did, it's to press the pedal and "blam, blam, blam,blam, blam, all in my plane..."
All the shells exploded of course, but partly outside of the plane. The Il-2 wooden monocoque structure (and moreover fabric covered one) was often too soft for 37 mm flak bullets (crossing through the structure, expoding outside) and the bathtub too hard (bullets were exploding too early this time, limiting destruction effects). Sometines even the bathtub was broken in pieces, engine reminded damaged but still in working condition. In fact the bathtub distruction eating some cinetic and blowing energy was limiting on it's turn bullet and splinters penetration inside the engine block.
That mean the Il-2 far from being indestructible was perfectly able to withstand sometimes a full 37 mm AA Flak hit on it's armor.
That shows the problem...for the Flak and fighters. Of course Titovitch never saw his Il-2 again (probably scrapped) and used other 872e ShAP (stormoviks air regiment) planes.
Regards
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Wow, they seem to have got that right
Yes, when discussing the structure of a Wallis designed bomber the correct term is always Geodetic. I don't know enough about it understand why but the concept didn't seem able to translate to all-metal aircraft. Even the Windosr (which was roughly comparable to the B-29) had a canvass skin!!
It's not has the bearing of anything, it's just a question of the utmost performance in armor piercing matters. So you'll never pierce a safe with a flashball or with a wood-drill. With weight and velocity, of coarse you can just brake it, by craking it. It's not the same thing.VG
