Spielberg Hanks Reunite For HBO Mini-Series "Masters of the Air"

[drgondog]

In earlier episodes they showed some debriefing/interrogation scenes.

Mainly what was said in these was which bombers they saw go down, and the number of parachutes they saw.

Were the actual debriefings like that, or more detailed about strength and position of the flak defences, strength of the fighter opposition, what tactics they used, weather, etc.?

Usually two or three debriefings at same time - squadron CO/lead ship flight commanders covered the mission highlights including times, routes, flak locations, target visibility, weather/visibility along the route, first contact with enemy fighters and details of the attacks - includng time and place of losses.

Gunners had a separate review to parse times and contacts and claims and also recollections of losses.

The briefings were first prformed by squadron intelligence teams, then collectively review with group intelligence. The squadron IO wrote up the 10-14 point mission summary and passed to group where it was distilled and sent to Division.

 

[SaparotRob]

Watch it the way one might watch an episode of Black Sheep Squadron, with the sound off. All the planes are ridiculously close to keep them in all in frame and the dialogue will only annoy. The engine sounds are not correct either, says Professor Propwash, a trusted source.
Just watch the plane porn.

 

[wuzak]

View: https://youtu.be/-0Hr7W_B4oc?si=iX5SP_Pe39fdVqn1

 

[wuzak]

View: https://youtu.be/Xb_o8ODQib4?si=EINNGPSOQq1TNivT

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Just watched the final episode.

Sure the series had a lot of inaccuracies, but I still enjoyed it. Not going to let that stuff ruin it for me.

 

[Capt. Vick]

There seemed to be ground to air missiles fired at the 17 that had the nose blown off... To my knowledge no ground based German antiaircraft missiles reached operations. What did I see?

 

[Lucky13]

There seemed to be ground to air missiles fired at the 17 that had the nose blown off... To my knowledge no ground based German antiaircraft missiles reached operations. What did I see?

High-powered slingshot?

 

[GrauGeist]

There seemed to be ground to air missiles fired at the 17 that had the nose blown off... To my knowledge no ground based German antiaircraft missiles reached operations. What did I see?

Of the five surface to air missile systems Germany had under development, none were ever used operationally.

I don't have internet (just limited internet via my phone) so I can't follow the series.

Is it possible that it was an R4M fired from an Me262?

 

[drgondog]

View: https://youtu.be/-0Hr7W_B4oc?si=iX5SP_Pe39fdVqn1

Because they were clueless. Visually they are all 500 pound GP. The maximum load out for Berlin range would be 10x500GP.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Of the five surface to air missile systems Germany had under development, none were ever used operationally.

I don't have internet (just limited internet via my phone) so I can't follow the series.

Is it possible that it was an R4M fired from an Me262?

No, it definitely came from the ground.

There really are a lot of inaccuracies in the show. I still found it fun to watch, and enjoyed it from an entertainment point of view.

 

[0bli0]

Episode 8 has just aired.

... Then they show a raid on the south of France in August 1944. The 332nd were shown flying P-51Ds fitted with rocket projectiles.

drgondog tells me that the 332nd did not get P-51Ds that early, and that the P-51D did not get rocket stubs until April 1945.

They received their first P-51 Cs & Bs in the middle of June '44. They did transition training and their first mission was 4 July, '44. They first received D models in October '44. The producers know that they were flying B/C models on 12 August but they only had an actual flying D model, so they chose to stick with D models so they could use footage of the flying D. In this video, they talk about that choice, and also why they chose to use rockets, even though they knew it was strafing only (they were using Lt. Col. Alex Jefferson's book as a reference) : https://youtu.be/hl2EYqcFXsE?t=957
In the video they also explain why they were still using B-17 F and not G.

Regarding the inclusion of the TAs - the mission was an actual mission that they flew in advance of Operation Dragoon. They took out their assigned radar installations. The three pilots were shot down and captured, and they were in Stalag Luft III. There were some historical inaccuracies in the scenes (Jefferson and Benjamin O Davis could not have been talking in France at the 500th celebration, as Jefferson was still in Algeria on that day. Also, Lt Shelby Westbrook was not shot down, he returned. In fact he saw Lt. Richard Macon's plan crash into a German control centre, and reported that he was KIA in the crash. It was Lt. Langdon Johnson that was shot down in the sea. As to their inclusion in the show, it was a better choice than to show the 923rd Aviation Engineer Regiment "Workin' the Aerodrome" after the Bamber Bridge incident as covered in the book. It would not have fit the pacing well at all.

But It would have been nice to see a good segment on the 56th FG Wolfpack.

 

[0bli0]

Alexander Jefferson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://tuskegeeairmen.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/TAI_Resources_312_Missions.pdf

That has the 12 August mission as "strafing", which I would take to mean gun attacks.

Unfortunately they don't say what aircraft they were flying.

They were definitely flying B / C models. They used Lt. Col. Jefferson's book for a lot of reference - especially many of his drawings. They acknowledge the wrong model - it was done for a reason as i linked in my other response in the thread. I had the pleasure of meeting Lt. Col Jefferson several times when I was younger. He was a good friend of my father. It is pretty surreal to have a story you heard as a kid visualised like it was.

 

[pinehilljoe]

It might not have been as historically accurate as many hoped it could have been, but I think it was moving and entertaining. I looked forward to watching every Friday evening for the past couple months.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

This might be of interest to y'all:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6KvIXpS9Oo

 

[Peter Gunn]

But It would have been nice to see a good segment on the 56th FG Wolfpack.

It would have been nicer to see a good segment on VIII Fighter Command.

As for the 332nd, meh.

 

[Retattack]

It would have been nicer to see a good segment on VIII Fighter Command.

As for the 332nd, meh.

Yes. The book wasn't bad, and covered the shift in operational aggressiveness under Doolittle well:

Jimmy Doolittle's first decision as commander of the Eighth would reverse the course of the air war. Under Eaker, the mission of the fighter escorts was to stay within close range of the bombers until enemy fighters attacked. "This policy concerned me," Doolittle explained later, "because fighter aircraft are designed to go after enemy fighters. Fighter pilots are usually pugnacious individuals by nature and are trained to be aggressive in the air. Their machines are specially designed for offensive action." Doolittle wanted his escorts to intercept the enemy's fighters before they reached the bombers, and to strafe enemy fighter fields and transportation targets on their return home, as well as on separate operations. "If it moved, could fly or supported the German war effort, I told my pilots to kill it in place." Spaatz agreed completely, seeing the destruction of the Luftwaffe in the air, on its airfields, and at its fighter factories as the Eighth's paramount responsibility. Eaker's policy of forcing the Luftwaffe up to fight by hitting vital economic targets made no sense, Doolittle argued, if the fighters remained tethered to the bombers.

It also had the German reaction, with quotes like the famous one from Galland:

Later, Adolf Galland would say that the day the Eighth Air Force's fighters went on the offense was the day Germany lost the air war. At this time, Hermann Göring was ordering his fighters to avoid the American fighter escorts altogether and concentrate on the bombers. This, Galland said later, was Germany's "greatest tactical error" of the air war. It caused his pilots to lose their élan and develop a deep fear of the American fighters, avoiding them whenever possible.

It also cited Williamson (though with insufficient emphasis in my opinion) and the decisive air campaign of '44: Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945

But then it sort of leapt to D-Day without covering the effect of the essential elimination of the Luftwaffe fighter force. The series did the same thing, only worse, and shoehorned a bad episode that implied the 332nd was an integral part of the air superiority fight in which they actually barely participated.

 

[33k in the air]

View: https://youtu.be/-0Hr7W_B4oc?si=iX5SP_Pe39fdVqn1

Because they were clueless. Visually they are all 500 pound GP. The maximum load out for Berlin range would be 10x500GP.

Funnily enough, there are too few bombs being released from each of the B-17s in that show image. See the following video reviewing that segment from the series: Masters of the Air – Why so many bombs in Episode 7? - Fact Checking the March 8, 1944 Mission

The analysis uses multiple primary source documents. The short version: the B-17s of the group were carrying a bomb load of 30 x 100 lb incendiary bombs and 10 x 100 lb GP bombs for the mission, for a total of 40 bombs in each aircraft.

(On the 6 March 1944 mission to Berlin, while most B-17s were carried 10 x 500 lb GP bombs and the B-24s 12 x 500 lb GP bombs, a few B-17s had a load of 42 x 100 lb incendiaries while a few B-24s carried 52 x 100 lb incendiaries.)

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

An interesting interview about the 100th, with nods to the series:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlSI9gAdqxs

 

[wuzak]

View: https://youtu.be/UaxEPO_hLFg?si=gqqLgAZMQQa-fIL7

 

[drgondog]

View: https://youtu.be/UaxEPO_hLFg?si=gqqLgAZMQQa-fIL7

This presentation is excellent- particularly nailing awful examples of Masters of Air. The late block D-20s had zero launch stubs as a production article, arriving in ETO December 1944. The 8th AF never performed a rocket mission and I'm pretty sure that the 15th did not with P-51s. 9th AF inP-47 but P-51D?, maybe but if so, only in March/April 1945.