Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 931
- Sep 30, 2021
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I would start with the probability the pilot's notes are a post war edition, with increased safety margins, rather like the way post war Mosquitoes never flew at the weights routinely used in wartime. The P-47 and P-51 needed extra tail area to compensate for the cutting down of the fuselage, so it is logical the Spitfire would as well, but that modification did not happen to the mark IX and XVI. Leading to post war the old style fuselages were considered safe enough to use the rear fuselage tanks if the mission was considered worth it, the cut down fuselages were not.Ya'll have to excuse my ignorance here but, I'm using G Geoffrey Sinclair post, but have seen reference elsewhere re:
"while the 66 gallon tanks for "rear view" fuselages "they must not be used in any circumstances"."
Spitfires got larger rudders on those MKs.The P-47 and P-51 needed extra tail area to compensate for the cutting down of the fuselage, so it is logical the Spitfire would as well, but that modification did not happen to the mark IX and XVI.
With 42G in the rear tank, 96G in the main tank and 26G in the leading edge tanks, should get him home shouldn't it?
So basically the pair of rear tanks was a codge (get around) of not having an appropriate sized drop tank?c) drop and rear fuselage tanks filled, change to rear tanks until only 30 gallons left in them, then switch to drop tank until empty then back to rear tanks.
The total Spitfires from the British production reports is 20,349 including the following PR types, 32 III, 229 IV, 16 X (with guns), 471 XI, 200 XIX, total 973 PR types, 4.8% of production. Then there were the conversions.I was talking about Spitfire fighters, not about PR Spitfires taking pictures. PR aircraft didn't win the skirmish, the battle, or the war. They took useful pictures that helped other people win the war. A bomber escort of PR Spitfires would be mostly useless. Yes, SOME PR Spitfires retained some guns, but they weren't exactly optimized for fighter duty and weren't used for it.
Out of 20,367 Spitfires built, variety accounted for a whopping 241 or 1.2%. So they weren't exactly plentiful.
No, the pair was to minimise the problems when fuel shifted in the tank as the Spitfire flew. Like the P-51 the rear fuel caused stability problems, so again like the P-51 some of the capacity was used before switching to the drop tanks.So basically the pair of rear tanks was a codge (get around) of not having an appropriate sized drop tank?
How does drop tank capacity affect internal fuel usage? For most of the fuel tank arrangements on the IX the 90 gallon tank was too big. The RAF did not see the point of a 170 gallon combat tank, given internal fuel loads of 124 gallons in the VIII and 85 in the IX and from all accounts the tank had a lot of drag. So the biggest combat tank was the 90 gallon one. Add 75 gallons of rear fuselage fuel to the IX but drop that to 30 gallons on the way out leaves 85+30 = 115 gallons, less 55 gallons or so combat and reserves, leaves 60 gallons which becomes the range limit, by burning 40 or so gallons of internal fuel outbound you would be turning back with a still partly filled 90 gallon external tank, even after the deductions for warm up and climb. To take full advantage of the 90 gallon tank capacity the 36 gallons of wing tanks would need to be added, joining the rear fuselage tanks. Or else you can go the other way, reduce the external fuel so the tank is empty around maximum radius, in a hand waving approximation, the 45 gallons internal used outbound means the external fuel load drops to 45 or so gallons from 90.The 170 gal was too big and the 90 gal tank too small to reach the "drop point" without using more internal fuel than wanted?
If the rear tanks were fitted then yes, burn off around half of more of the fuel from the rear tanks, then switch to the drop tank, then drop the tank if entering combat, and unless there was enough internal tankage, use a smaller external tank or even a partially filled 90 gallon one.So the Spitfire really was using about 30-40imp gallons plus the 90 imp gallon drop tank on the way out and the 30-35imp gallons plus forward fuselage tank/s plus wing tanks for combat and the trip back. ?
(VIII and IX) Yes, but that already had them before the cut down fuselages versions were built. Using the pilot's notes the broad chord rudder was judged to be not enough for the cut down fuselage aircraft to safely use the rear fuselage fuel tanks, probably in peace time anyway.Spitfires got larger rudders on those MKs.
What cruise speed was needed for escort missions? Typically the P-51's flew around 300-305 mph and it's turning radius was wider than the Spitfire (a function of having a higher stall speed)...Repeating from "Wasn't the P-51 the best escort fighter of the war?" Page 32, message 623, 6 February. As of January 1944 external tanks for Spitfires being made were 30 gallon (Metal, wood, fibre) and 45, 90 and 170 gallon metal. "relevant Spitfire VIII figures from the original sources quoting maximum weak-mixture power setting as 320 mph at 20,000 ft, consuming about 1.1 gallon per minute. This corresponds with an engine setting of 2,400 rpm, +4 lbs boost (66 gallons per hour). So this seems similar. From the same source, the RAF were allocating 23 gallons for take-off and climb to 20,000 ft, and 36 gallons for 15 minutes of combat, leaving 63 gallons for cruise. This gives an endurance of 57 minutes, or a range of 304 miles, for an escort radius of 152 miles." (no reserves)
What's a "rear view" fuselage? Is that a design with a Malcolm hood?The third edition of the Spitfire mark IX, XI and XVI pilot's notes has the pair of rear fuselage tanks with 75 gallons (66 for "rear view" fuselages), permission from the Area Commander is needed to fill the 75 gallon tanks for special operations, while the 66 gallon tanks for "rear view" fuselages "they must not be used in any circumstances". One reason for a pair of rear fuselage tanks was to reduce fuel movement, my understanding for the 66 gallon option = 2x33 is it was safe to enter combat after one tank was emptied but the improved elevators designed by Westland were needed to carry the rear fuselage fuel.
The more fuel you stuff in the plane, you'll take longer to climb, so that will have to be factored in.Off the shelf in 1943 is mark VIII with 90 gallon drop tank, 23 gallons lost to warm up and climb, leaving 67 external, add the distance covered in the climb puts the Spitfire around 300 miles from base when the tank is emptied so a radius of around 300 miles.
Ironically, night-fighters were often used to cover bomber-formations.Official doctrine was not allowing. Charles Portal's opinon (he was the Marshal of the Royal Air Force back then) was that escort fighters don't work.
The 1-g stall speed doesn't have a lot to do with turning radius. A Spitfire in a level turn at 200 knots (or any OTHER speed) pulling 3-g has exactly the same turn radius as any OTHER airplane at 200 knots pulling 3-g. A lower stall speed simply means that the Spitfire can get just a bit slower before stalling. The thing is, NOBODY who flew a fighter wanted to be in aerial combat anywhere NEAR the 1-g stall speed. What they wanted in a fight was to be near the stall speed for your current g-load, so their turn rate was at its best. It's all in the maneuvering envelope.What cruise speed was needed for escort missions? Typically the P-51's flew around 300-305 mph and it's turning radius was wider than the Spitfire (a function of having a higher stall speed)...
The Mareng bag was in lieu of the normal wing-tanks, so it would add 8 gallons versus 36 gallons for a grand total (internal) of 150 gallons for the Mk.VIII and 158 gallons for the Mk.IX.
I remember the USAAF had modified a Spitfire IXc, is this the internal fuel figures they are talking about, or was that another arrangement?
What's a "rear view" fuselage? Is that a design with a Malcolm hood?
I assume the "rear-view" fuselage designs didn't have the redesigned elevator?
The more fuel you stuff in the plane, you'll take longer to climb, so that will have to be factored in.
I would also assume that if you were going to use the aft-tanks you'd want to burn those down first to cover at least part of the climb to adjust the CG to within tolerable limits for combat; then switch to drop-tanks for the rest of the climb and flight until combat starts.
BTW: I remember some of the early PR variants had a tank under the pilot that was added: I don't know why that was removed from later aircraft, if there was a good reason.
Ironically, night-fighters were often used to cover bomber-formations.
What's a "rear view" fuselage? Is that a design with a Malcolm hood?
Generally an airplane's corner velocity is the square root of the g-load x stall speed. The stall speed of the Spitfire was lower than the P-51 so it would be able to pull its rated g-load down to lower speeds than the P-51 would.The 1-g stall speed doesn't have a lot to do with turning radius. A Spitfire in a level turn at 200 knots (or any OTEHER speed) pulling 3-g has exactly the same turn radius as any OTHER airplane at 200 knots pulling 3-g. A lower stall speed simply means that the Spitfire can get just a bit slower before stalling.
And the tightest turn rate happened to be where the rated load-factor hit the minimum speed to do it at. The turn rate would tighten down to that point; then widen out below that since you don't have enough speed to produce the lift to pull the load-factor needed.The thing is, NOBODY who flew a fighter wanted to be in aerial combat anywhere NEAR the 1-g stall speed. What they wanted in a fight was to be near the stall speed for your current g-load, so their turn rate was at its best.
I was talking about Spitfire fighters, not about PR Spitfires taking pictures. PR aircraft didn't win the skirmish, the battle, or the war. They took useful pictures that helped other people win the war. A bomber escort of PR Spitfires would be mostly useless. Yes, SOME PR Spitfires retained some guns, but they weren't exactly optimized for fighter duty and weren't used for it.
Same as the 'stang, it was forbidden for pilots to do any maneuvers with drop tanks fitted or with more than 30-40G of fuel still in the rear tanks, the only exception was the MkXIV, it could fight with the 90G combat tank fitted.drop and rear fuselage tanks filled, change to rear tanks until only 30 gallons left in them, then switch to drop tank until empty then back to rear tanks.
Generally an airplane's corner velocity is the square root of the g-load x stall speed. The stall speed of the Spitfire was lower than the P-51 so it would be able to pull its rated g-load down to lower speeds than the P-51 would.
The P-51 also had a higher g-load so even if they were the same, the P-51 would technically be higher.
And the tightest turn rate happened to be where the rated load-factor hit the minimum speed to do it at. The turn rate would tighten down to that point; then widen out below that since you don't have enough speed to produce the lift to pull the load-factor needed.
Why does the Spitfire have to do the Mustangs role?. Spits could have been ranging out to 400 miles over the Med, Europe the Pacific contributing far more than what they did if the RAF had the same thinking as the USAF who where at that time fitting ferry tanks to P47's to at least try and get into the fight. Spitfire VIII's and IX's flying escort to the German border from early '43 would have achieved far more than the pointless sweeps they did actually do over the channel because the RAF refused to fit aux tanks.
There were charts that talked about turning radius vs g-load which effectively produce the same concept, even if the term wasn't used. Airplanes generally flew at a speed that was tactically usable.I agree about the corner velocity, which was not a thing in WWII.
I didn't know the F-16's was that high to be honest. I believe you however, since I know little about the capabilities of the F-16, but I'm surprised the number was so high.The corner velocity of an F-16 is about 450 knots
Zipper / Greg,There were charts that talked about turning radius vs g-load which effectively produce the same concept, even if the term wasn't used. Airplanes generally flew at a speed that was tactically usable.
For escort that might be slower than for interception, where the goal is to get out there and destroy the bomber before he can drop bombs on target (which very well might be a city). For escort, the idea would be to be going fast enough that, if jumped by fighters, you were either going fast enough that, in the event of combat, you could either start maneuvering right away, or get up to an optimum speed quickly enough to do you good.
I'm not sure if the 320 mph speed cited for the spitfire was based on escort, general fighter sweeps, or intercept. I do recall that the P-51 usually flew a little slower on escorts, and it seemed to give a good account of itself. I'm not sure how the acceleration rate of the P-51 compared with the Spitfire at 300 or 320 mph (level flight), but I remember hearing it'd dive faster.
I didn't know the F-16's was that high to be honest. I believe you however, since I know little about the capabilities of the F-16, but I'm surprised the number was so high.
They also got reprofiled ailerons, different bob weights and the aileron hinges were redesigned and moved to give better high speed authority from the MkII through to the MkVIII and IX, testing done on a MkIX showed it was suitable for combat with the bottom 33G tank full.Spitfires got larger rudders on those MKs.
While the PR types were not that useful as escorts it would be good to know which web site has the very wrong Spitfire production numbers, managing to report only a quarter of the actual PR versions. Also the figures I posted are not mine, they come from the Vickers company archives, Ministry of Aircraft Production, Ministry of Supply, Air Ministry and RAF and cross checked.My production numbers for PR types don' match yours, Geoffrey, but the point is still that there weren't very many and they weren't all that useful for fighter vs. fighter combat.
Technically the mark VIII wing tanks were leading edge as far as I know. The 66.5 gallon leading edge tank in the PR versions I understand was not self sealing. The VIII already had 14 gallons in the wing, you would need to go to a pair of 20mm cannons or fit the E wing to free up the outer wing leading edge and the extra wing tanks would start somewhere outboard of the armament, not sure how much volume is there forward of the spar, also the fuel lines have to be threaded through the armament area and while good for CoG purposes, when filled the tanks would not help the roll rate.So, any missions of the type contemplated above would be in Spitfires that did NOT have leading edge tanks. Therefore, that fuel will not be there in a Spitfire on a combat mission.
No fighter was going to destroy Berlin. Is it possible to redo the radius map with the different cruise speeds and combat allowance?Sure, you could cobble together a "Speed Spitfire," but you were not going to cobble together 500 of them and then go destroy Berlin.
Cruise speed is one of those it depends, whether the tactic is to stay with the bomber or to be moving faster for self protection and better ability to intercept. The rear view fuselage was the "bubble" canopy and being a late production type it tended to have the bigger tail/elevator. Agreed the extra fuel weight will add to consumption, particularly on climb. Not sure about an under the pilot tank, but the early PR types had all sorts of camera and fuel combinations.What cruise speed was needed for escort missions? Typically the P-51's flew around 300-305 mph
What's a "rear view" fuselage? Is that a design with a Malcolm hood?
I assume the "rear-view" fuselage designs didn't have the redesigned elevator?
The more fuel you stuff in the plane, you'll take longer to climb, so that will have to be factored in.
BTW: I remember some of the early PR variants had a tank under the pilot that was added: I don't know why that was removed from later aircraft, if there was a good reason.
The 320 mph speed was based on Spitfire VIII operations in the Mediterranean. The reason for the 320 mph cruise is speed = safety, it made it much harder to bounce the formation, based on things like the Fw190 evaluation. As well it gave better opportunities to set up an attack. As is well known few normally flew at economic cruise in European contested airspace, while the units in the Pacific knew the chances for combat were minimal except near the target, so economic cruise almost all the way, in a loose association of aircraft that only tightened up near the target.I'm not sure if the 320 mph speed cited for the spitfire was based on escort, general fighter sweeps, or intercept.