Spitfire Combat Radius (range) evolution, limitations?

GregP · Mar 14, 2022

Yes, Wayne, and they WERE released and DID fly missions. If you read my post, I already SAID there more than 20,000 Spitfires built.

What does he want to change, and what would it accomplish that wasn't otherwise accomplished during the war? How would putting in the absolute MOST fuel into Spitfires a bit earlier affect the war's timeline? If all it does is to add reserve fuel, then nothing would change. They HAD long-range fighters that flew long-range missions.

What would Spitfires with extra fuel that didn't EVER get as long-range as Mustangs and Lightnings accomplish that would change the war? Why is this worthy of discussion if it doesn't change what happened for the better?

I'm sure Pat has something in mind. I'm just trying to find out what it is.

wuzak · Mar 14, 2022

I'm sure that longer range Spitfire IXs would have been handy in escort relays with P-47s, P-38s and P-51s.

Certainly it would have allowed more flexibility in their operation.

PAT303 · Mar 15, 2022

GregP said:
There were way fewer Spitfires than Hurricanes in the BOB and they never DID have a lot of the "sitting around."

The BoB ended in 1940, the war ended in 1945.

PAT303 · Mar 15, 2022

GregP said:
I'm not really arguing. I'm trying to understand what you want everyone to see, and what it would change during WWII in your eyes.

I'm not trying to change anything other than doing to the Spitfire what the American's did to their fighters, add more fuel.

pbehn · Mar 15, 2022

wuzak said:
20,000+ Spitfires were built, most of them during the war.

How many Spitfires were available in the BoB is irrelevant to how many were available in 1943-1945.

The clue to the availability of Spitfires is when they were released for overseas service. Which was in 1942, if I am not mistaken.

Those figures also give a clue as to how quickly an airforce of circa 1,000 fighter planes wears out new planes.

wuzak · Mar 15, 2022

Question for

drgondog :

In a relay escorting system, does the operating radius of the first leg affect the operating radius of the second leg, and so forth?

My thought is that if you have Spitfires as your first leg and they have only a 100 mile radius, the second leg will have to escort from that point, or earlier.

Making its way to the rendezvous, the second leg can use a more economical cruise setting. But when they get near the rendezvous, where potential for enemy action is greater, they will need to be at higher speeds with worse economy.

If the Spitfire extends its radius to 150 miles then the second leg can spend more time at the economical cruise settings. Which may allow them a greater escort radius.

Or this could be just reaching at straws on my part, with the reality that once over the continent all the escort will have to use a higher cruise speed with lower economy.

Vincenzo · Mar 15, 2022

what could happening if Spitfire, this WI long ranged, escort are engaged over the Belgium?

drgondog · Mar 15, 2022

wuzak said:
Question for drgondog :

In a relay escorting system, does the operating radius of the first leg affect the operating radius of the second leg, and so forth?

My thought is that if you have Spitfires as your first leg and they have only a 100 mile radius, the second leg will have to escort from that point, or earlier.

Making its way to the rendezvous, the second leg can use a more economical cruise setting. But when they get near the rendezvous, where potential for enemy action is greater, they will need to be at higher speeds with worse economy.

If the Spitfire extends its radius to 150 miles then the second leg can spend more time at the economical cruise settings. Which may allow them a greater escort radius.

Or this could be just reaching at straws on my part, with the reality that once over the continent all the escort will have to use a higher cruise speed with lower economy.

Simple answer Yes. More complicated is that the Wing Fighter Command Ops officers 65th, 66th and 67th worked with 8th AF Ops and Bomb Division Ops to plan dispositions for every mission. The first breakdown was the Target selections to gain perspective for longest range target group.

Use Spring 1944 when Mustang and Lightning force level was nearly equal to the task of assigning 3 Long Range Escort FG per Bomb Division. In mid April there were 4 8th AF, 2 9th AF Mustang FGs and 3 8th AF Lightning FGs. Nearly always they would be assigned Target escort. The next level of complexity was encountered if one or more targets were of Berlin or greater radius (Stettin, Posnan, Brux. Munich.

If single thread attack, like April 29 Berlin, the plan (which was screwed up when one BD did a walkabout way south of the penetration route) then the Penetration escort of P-47 FGs were going as far as Celle before R/V with either a P-38 or P-51 FG combination assigned to a.) first TF, b.) second TF and c.) third task force. In this example, one Mustang FG might arrive early near the RV, then sweep along the planned route in front of the 1st TF seeking LW formations. A second and 3rd FG arriving near the same RV - but later - actually picked up the 1st Task Force boxes. Sometime later as the 2nd TF was passing through the same space, perhaps two Mustang FGs would arrive to escort the boxes of the 2nd TF, and finally the third escort force of two P-38 Fgs would pick up trail TF.

The RV in this example is where (approximately) the P-47s were relieved, one by one as they escorted the 1st, 2nd and 3rd TF inbound.

The Sweeping FG was able to use fuel more efficiently because they were not tethered to the bomber stream, but each of the target escort FGs were so tethered and generally split within FG to cover high center, high trail and lead level in separate squadrons or even sections - Essing.

The reverse process also depended on the combat radius of the Withdrawal P-47 (or RAF Mustang III in several instances) to relieve the target escort as they rounded the target and set course for home - still with their assigned bomb groups - until relieved by Penetration escorts.

PAT303 · Mar 15, 2022

wuzak said:
Or this could be just reaching at straws on my part, with the reality that once over the continent all the escort will have to use a higher cruise speed with lower economy.

Good point, this is one of the many reasons I believe the A6M wouldn't have succeeded over Europe because it relied on a slow cruising speed with a weak mixture to get it's range. It was proven right back in 1941 when MkV's did raids over France that speed is life but it could be safe cruising at a lower speed ''if'' the flight in front of you has cleared the airspace, likewise the returning flight is flying past the next so they could also cruise at a slower speed. Either way MkIX's with a 400 mile combat radius in 1943 would have been a handy plane to have.

tomo pauk · Mar 15, 2022

PAT303 said:
Good point, this is one of the many reasons I believe the A6M wouldn't have succeeded over Europe because it relied on a slow cruising speed with a weak mixture to get it's range.

A6M relied on more than 850 liters of fuel, made possible via the 330L drop tank. Or, more than double vs. Bf 109E-3/E-4, Hurricane I or Spitfire I/II.

GregP · Mar 15, 2022

PAT303 said:
The BoB ended in 1940, the war ended in 1945.

You think?

So, no real plan, just add more Spitfire fuel. Well. they didn't until later in the war when they did, but it still wasn't enough to make the Spitfire a long-range airplane.

But, that's OK. They never made the Bf 109 anything but a short-range airplane and it was the most prolific aircraft in enemy shoot-downs, so maybe it isn't all bad.

Cheers.

wuzak · Mar 15, 2022

drgondog said:
Simple answer Yes. More complicated is that the Wing Fighter Command Ops officers 65th, 66th and 67th worked with 8th AF Ops and Bomb Division Ops to plan dispositions for every mission. The first breakdown was the Target selections to gain perspective for longest range target group.

Use Spring 1944 when Mustang and Lightning force level was nearly equal to the task of assigning 3 Long Range Escort FG per Bomb Division. In mid April there were 4 8th AF, 2 9th AF Mustang FGs and 3 8th AF Lightning FGs. Nearly always they would be assigned Target escort. The next level of complexity was encountered if one or more targets were of Berlin or greater radius (Stettin, Posnan, Brux. Munich.

If single thread attack, like April 29 Berlin, the plan (which was screwed up when one BD did a walkabout way south of the penetration route) then the Penetration escort of P-47 FGs were going as far as Celle before R/V with either a P-38 or P-51 FG combination assigned to a.) first TF, b.) second TF and c.) third task force. In this example, one Mustang FG might arrive early near the RV, then sweep along the planned route in front of the 1st TF seeking LW formations. A second and 3rd FG arriving near the same RV - but later - actually picked up the 1st Task Force boxes. Sometime later as the 2nd TF was passing through the same space, perhaps two Mustang FGs would arrive to escort the boxes of the 2nd TF, and finally the third escort force of two P-38 Fgs would pick up trail TF.

The RV in this example is where (approximately) the P-47s were relieved, one by one as they escorted the 1st, 2nd and 3rd TF inbound.

The Sweeping FG was able to use fuel more efficiently because they were not tethered to the bomber stream, but each of the target escort FGs were so tethered and generally split within FG to cover high center, high trail and lead level in separate squadrons or even sections - Essing.

The reverse process also depended on the combat radius of the Withdrawal P-47 (or RAF Mustang III in several instances) to relieve the target escort as they rounded the target and set course for home - still with their assigned bomb groups - until relieved by Penetration escorts.

So, basically, it depends on the specific escort role?

Fighters in close escort will have their range extended when fighters in earlier stages of the relay have theirs extended, while fighters performing sweeps ahead of the bomber formation will gain little, or no, benefit?

33k in the air · Mar 15, 2022

Why would the RAF pursue extended range for its Spitfires given that Bomber Command had long since switched to nighttime bombing? It had no impetus to extend the range since it didn't need it. The USAAF was responsible for its own operations. The USAAF had to painfully learn for itself that daylight bombing without fighter escort was too costly no matter how dense the formations and well-armed the bombers.

Shortround6 · Mar 15, 2022

PAT303 said:
I'm not trying to change anything other than doing to the Spitfire what the American's did to their fighters, add more fuel.

Added how much fuel when ?

The long nose P-40s held 180 US gallons down to 135 US gallons depending on type of fuel tank protection.
However they weren't really supposed to carry that much in combat. The tank behind the seat was supposed to used for ferrying/deployment. The P-40C got the drop tank but the 52 gallons just about equaled the fuel lost to the self sealing tanks.
Also notice that the Mustang originally held the same amount of fuel as the Early Tomahawk did. They did get protected tanks in the Mustang though.
P-39s didn't hold much more fuel than British planes did.
P-38s didn't get drop tanks until the F model starting in March of 1942 and the D & E models had 300 US gallons for two engines.

US fighters often had to make long range deployments in the 1930s and early 40s. Their extra fuel capacity was more towards such deployments than it was escorting bombers.

GregP · Mar 15, 2022

I'm pretty sure the Brits weren't going to leave home defense to imported U.S. fighters after they added the extra fuel to the Spitfires. They were going to fly the missions they flew, no matter what fuel got added. The Spits just might have been able to go a bit farther or stay up longer, but they would not be transferred to other places leaving the bases where they were assigned undefended.

Still, Pat has a point, a bit more fuel would have been welcome on many occasions. The only time they ever had too much fuel was when they were on fire.

wuzak · Mar 15, 2022

33k in the air said:
Why would the RAF pursue extended range for its Spitfires given that Bomber Command had long since switched to nighttime bombing? It had no impetus to extend the range since it didn't need it. The USAAF was responsible for its own operations. The USAAF had to painfully learn for itself that daylight bombing without fighter escort was too costly no matter how dense the formations and well-armed the bombers.

Very few, if any, 8th AF bombing raids were flown that were completely unescorted. They used partial escorts, or at least planned to, on missions until true long range escorts were available that could escort all the way to the target.

RAF Spitfires were involved with escorting 8th AF bombers in conjunction with P-47s. Certainly for raids in 1942 and 1943. Not sure about later - the USAAF probably had enough fighters in Britain by that stage to not need RAF help.

33k in the air · Mar 15, 2022

wuzak said:
Very few, if any, 8th AF bombing raids were flown that were completely unescorted. They used partial escorts, or at least planned to, on missions until true long range escorts were available that could escort all the way to the target.

Yes, but in this context it means long-range missions, i.e. beyond the existing range of the fighters.

ThomasP · Mar 16, 2022

I suspect the reason the Spit Mk VIII and such were assigned to the Med & CBI theaters was that the increased fuel load had more value there. Maybe?

EwenS · Mar 16, 2022

ThomasP said:
I suspect the reason the Spit Mk VIII and such were assigned to the Med & CBI theaters was that the increased fuel load had more value there. Maybe?

Spitfire VIII and IX were flown alongside each other in the Mediterranean, sometimes simultaneously in the same squadrons. Initial deliveries to India came from Spitfire VIII stocks originally shipped to MUs in North Africa and then flown to India eg 81 squadron from Dec 1943. Spitfire VIII started arriving in Australia in Oct 1943.

drgondog · Mar 16, 2022

PAT303 said:
View attachment 661233Looking at this image a MkVIII with rear tanks plus a 90G drop tank could have flown out between the P47 and P38, that would have made a great contribution to the war instead of flying pointless sorties over Belgium.

This map incorrectly states combat radius (actual flight tested, agreed, and published by Service Command)

Spitfire Combat Radius (range) evolution, limitations?

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