Stealth Questions

[comiso90]

Stealth and icing:
How do the F-117, F-22 and F-35 deal with icing? Certainly ice build up would compromise stealth effectiveness. The wings seem too thin for de-icers. We won't always have the "luxury" of fighting in warm climates. The Arctic may heat up.

How does the F-117 radar footprint compare with the next generation aircraft?

Stealth is only as good as the radar that is doing the "painting". There must be theories on how to defeat stealth.. Higher frequency radar? Some totally new technology?

When the F-22 is in a non-tactical situation, I'd assume it must extend a fin or some other reflecting device to appear visible to controllers. Does anybody have a photo of this?

..

thanks

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Stealth and icing:
How do the F-117, F-22 and F-35 deal with icing? Certainly ice build up would compromise stealth effectiveness. The wings seem too thin for de-icers. We won't always have the "luxury" of fighting in warm climates. The Arctic may heat up.

There are anti icing systems in these aircraft, not sure if they are electric or pneumatic...

How does the F-117 radar footprint compare with the next generation aircraft?

I was told the F-22 has twice the stealth effectiveness of the F-117

Stealth is only as good as the radar that is doing the "painting". There must be theories on how to defeat stealth.. Higher frequency radar? Some totally new technology?

IR and radars that could actually pick of the "wake" of the aircraft have been rumored as ways to defeat Stealth.

When the F-22 is in a non-tactical situation, I'd assume it must extend a fin or some other reflecting device to appear visible to controllers. Does anybody have a photo of this?

It carries a transponder that puts out a squawk code where controllers could "see" it.

 

[comiso90]

Thanks FBJ...

I cant imagine a pneumatic system... That in itself would seem to compromise Stealth. icing has to create issues in extremely cold environments

I know they have transponders but I thought there was a mechanical solution too. It seems there would be value to run "uncloaked" so the bad guys wouldn't know just how good the stealth was.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks FBJ...

I cant imagine a pneumatic system... That in itself would seem to compromise Stealth. icing has to create issues in extremely cold environments

It probably will but to pick up ice you have to fly through visible moisture at below freezing temps. I know both the F-117 and B-2 were run though enviornmental test that including icing...

I know they have transponders but I thought there was a mechanical solution too. It seems there would be value to run "uncloaked" so the bad guys wouldn't know just how good the stealth was.

No mechanical means per se although I do know the B-2 had retractable nav lights that when deployed enables it to be picked up on radar, again from what I'm told....

 

[comiso90]

>>No mechanical means per se although I do know the B-2 had retractable nav lights that when deployed enables it to be picked up on radar, again from what I'm told....

That makes sense... I'd like to see all the stealth planes run in full stealth modes only in some training and combat sorties.

I could see value in them flying in "semi-stealth" mode to lull the bad guys into thinking they can pick them up.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think any Stealth aircraft would run either "Visible" or "invisible." No sense being in the middle....

 

[comiso90]

I think any Stealth aircraft would run either "Visible" or "invisible." No sense being in the middle....

Mixing it up could confuse the bad guys...

Suppose the Russians/Chinese monitor F-22 intercept missions for 5 years and they think they have a good idea for the radar signature only the stealth aircraft are running in "almost-stealth" configuration with minute changes in the skin causing a tiny reflection.

When a shooting war starts, the F-22 "smooths out" a surface or two and slips into full stealth... All the data the bad guys acquired is thrown out the window...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Mixing it up could confuse the bad guys

...nothing will confuse the bad guys more than having the aircraft run invisible the whole time

 

[Matt308]

X-band radar. Basically the theory is that a single transmitter "paints" the sky where the stealth aircraft may be operating. Since all aircraft reflect to some degree and stealth aircraft minimize reflections directly back to the transmitter, multiple receivers working as a network can be used to measure indirect reflections and triangulate in near realtime the stealth aircraft location.

In theory, this would work great for stealth aircraft like the F-117. And much less so with stealth technologies that absorb radar energy like the F-22.

Stealth aircraft have Mode S transponders for civil tracking. But I have also witnessed B-2 flights with a large trailing antenna (10'-15' long) that I assumed was a means of increasing its signature in some fashion. Perhaps others know.

 

[T4.H]

On such a way the F117 was shot down over yugoslavia.
One radar system sends the signals, several systems got back the reflected radar signals from the F117.
By phone they collected the informations from the several radar stations and guided a Mig21 to the target, which at least shot down the F117. Three attacks, two less or more not sucsessful with rockets (which only damaged the F117), at least the Mig shot down the F117 with there guns.

It's said, that the german airfoce can also connect there radar systems on such a way (Patriot). But of couse, they don't use phones...

 

[Parmigiano]

On such a way the F117 was shot down over yugoslavia.
One radar system sends the signals, several systems got back the reflected radar signals from the F117.
By phone they collected the informations from the several radar stations and guided a Mig21 to the target, which at least shot down the F117. Three attacks, two less or more not sucsessful with rockets (which only damaged the F117), at least the Mig shot down the F117 with there guns.

It's said, that the german airfoce can also connect there radar systems on such a way (Patriot). But of couse, they don't use phones...

that's very interesting....

i thought it was Sinisa Mihajlovich with a free kick and his special weapon:

" football (or soccer ball). Law 2 of the game specifies that the ball is an air-filled sphere with a circumference of 68–70 cm (or 27–28 inches), a weight of 410–450 g (or 14–16 ounces), inflated to a pressure of 60–110 kPa (or 8.5–15.6 psi), and covered in leather or "other suitable material".[1] The weight specified for a ball is the dry weight: older balls often became significantly heavier in the course of a match played in wet weather. The standard ball is a Size 5."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

On such a way the F117 was shot down over yugoslavia.
One radar system sends the signals, several systems got back the reflected radar signals from the F117.
By phone they collected the informations from the several radar stations and guided a Mig21 to the target, which at least shot down the F117. Three attacks, two less or more not sucsessful with rockets (which only damaged the F117), at least the Mig shot down the F117 with there guns.

It's said, that the german airfoce can also connect there radar systems on such a way (Patriot). But of couse, they don't use phones...

It's funny - another Yugoslav source says it was an anti-aircraft battery that shot down the F-117A. Then again some of these same folks said they also brought down a B-2!!!

 

[SoD Stitch]

On such a way the F117 was shot down over yugoslavia.
One radar system sends the signals, several systems got back the reflected radar signals from the F117.
By phone they collected the informations from the several radar stations and guided a Mig21 to the target, which at least shot down the F117. Three attacks, two less or more not sucsessful with rockets (which only damaged the F117), at least the Mig shot down the F117 with there guns.

It's said, that the german airfoce can also connect there radar systems on such a way (Patriot). But of couse, they don't use phones...

Go here for the "true" story on the F-117 shootdown in Kosovo; this article was in the latest issue of Smithsonian's Air Space Magazine:

Unconventional Weapon

 

[comiso90]

Go here for the "true" story on the F-117 shootdown in Kosovo; this article was in the latest issue of Smithsonian's Air Space Magazine:

Unconventional Weapon

good article, thanks

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Good one SoD.

So much for that MiG-21!

 

[comiso90]

Well it's easier to believe that a MiG 21 could shoot down a Stealth with guns rather then missiles... as long as its day time.

.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Agree....

 

[evangilder]

To be honest, I still think it was a lucky shot. When I first saw the footage of the downed F-117, I remember seeing the shrapnel holes in the wings were from above the aircraft. The holes on the top of the wing had the perforations inward. That tells me that if it was "shot down", it wasn't a perfect hit, but rather a proximity shot in the general vicinity. Plus in the article it said that the pilot ejected when he thought he was being tracked. What happened to evasive action?!?!

Stupid tactics are also partly to blame. They were using almost identical routes, night after night. Hmmm, it doesn't take a particularly clever enemy to figure out your patterns when you repeat them over and over again. Same thing in Somalia. When you become predictable in your tactics, you become a target. If you keep the enemy guessing because they don't know how, from where and when you will striking next, your survivability goes way up.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Agree Eric - same thing was done in Nam.

 

[plan_D]

The anti-icing on the F-22 is bleed air from the engines piped to the leading edges of the wings, like most aircraft today.