SturmFw's

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Erich, Jun 15, 2005.

  1. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    working with artist Randy Wright at present for his web-site filling him in on the German attack which took out 30 B-24's of the 445th bomb group near Kassel on 27 September 1944.

    it was a slaughter, with 118 US crewsmen KIA and 25 German pilots KIA. Only with the help of the "Yellowjackets", 361st fg was the bomb group able to send 4-6 B-24's back home to England with varyuing amounts of damage...
     

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  2. evangilder

    evangilder "Shooter"
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    Nice pic, terrible event.
     
  3. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    closest Fw 190Sturm is white 20 flown by pilot Erich Keller who shot down 1 B-24 and another out of formation. Upper right white 4 ? and lower is probably the Staffelkapitän of 5.Sturm/JG 4 flying Weiße 1-?

    5th staffel put in for 14 kills of B-24's alone with 40 being claimed by the whole II.Sturm/JG 4, about 30 too many.

    Dr. Hubert Chlond whom passed away a year ago shot down 2. He was flying Weiße 14.
     
  4. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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  5. Udet

    Udet Banned

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    Erich:

    Do you happen to know the total (approximate) number of heavy bombers that were shot down by the three Sturmgruppen during the war?
     
  6. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    for JG 3 and JG 4 yes. not till the two volumes on JG 300 are published.......I have an idea but the claims are not correct with the actual amount of kills as JG 300 overclaimed. The volumes on the JG 300 unit will correct that. 25-30 years of research have gone into the French and English volumes. The French edition is available now and the English volume 1 is due sometime in July
     
  7. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    And come on old friend what are the numbers? :D
     
  8. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Geezo..........

    ok for SturmFw's from II.Sturm/JG 4 not counting the days of the original Sturmstaffel 1

    JG 4 Sturms : 85 US bombers shot down. I took off 20 that were extra from their claims on 27 September 1944 as they only shot down 10 not 30 as they put in for.

    JG 3 Sturms coming up but they will take a bit of time
     
  9. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    JG 3 Sturms from 7-7-44 till the time in the Ost front.

    262 US heavy bombers
    30 B-26's on 23.12.1944

    JG 4 Sturms first mission was 11.09.1944

    JG 300 Sturms first mission was 7-7-44 as a complete Sturm unit but had attacked US heavy bombers even back in June of 44 over the Reich. when I find out through the data base hopefully it will not include RAF 4 engine bombers in the total. I believe and this should not be taken as fact, the JG 300 claimed something like 2,000 plus kills but that is probably true if we count it's first mission in July of 43 over the burning city of Hamburg. As I mentioned the two volumes on the unit will be worth waiting for .....
     
  10. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Now these are just the kills for the Sturm FW's correct and not other units kills or other aircraft such as the Bf-109's, Bf-110's....etc.
     
  11. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    just FW 190-A-8/R2's and R-8 variants along with the standard A-8 that was flown in the units but very few.
     
  12. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Okay that is what I thought.
     
  13. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    from II.Sturm/JG 4 on the first two missions the Sturms took part in. thanks to friend Neil page for the translation. herr Chlond was a kind man, sadly passing away a couple of years ago. 5 kills to his credit.

    Uffz Kurt Scherer 6 (Sturm)./JG4

    "...The sky was full of aeroplanes as far as the eye could see. P-51s dived down onto our close formation but our escorts fought them off. We were getting closer and closer to the bomber stream . The first tracers came flying past my ears. From then on everything happened very quickly. Our formation curved down right into the middle of the bomber stream in a textbook ( schulmässig gerissene Kurve ) manoeuvre. We were flying now in the bomber formation with B-17s in front and behind us. The deadly explosive shells from the first attack formation ( Angriffskeil ) of our Sturmmaschinen drilled into the B-17s that were growing ever bigger. I was amazed at the size of these huge machines, far bigger than I had imagined. But the fate of the four engined bomber growing ever bigger in my gunsight would be decided by my 3 cm cannon...."

    Uffz Herbert Chlond 5./JG4

    ".. My machine was not serviceable on the 11 September and as our Kommandeur , Obstlt von Kornatzki couldn't fly this mission ( for what reason I do not know ) I flew in his aircraft. Although I didn't know it , his plane was fitted with a gun camera. I shot down a B-17 and this kill was recorded, being filmed from the moment I pressed the firing button up to the point where the B-17's rudder and tail fin broke away . I however knew nothing of this until a couple of days later when the film was replayed ... I can still remember how von Kornatzki ordered us that following our first victories we should have the front of the cowling of our aircraft ( Flugzeugnasen ) painted red to put fear into the enemy crews.."




    The following day, 12 September, saw another all out effort launched by the three Bomber Divisions of the 8th AF. As a result of the previous days action some fifty pilots of II/JG4 had landed back at airfields other than their own and the unit was ill prepared to meet another major incursion. It was to be a black day for II./JG4. von Kornatzki's machine, Fw 190A-8 'grüne 3' was seen to take hits from the B-17 he was attacking and dropping out of formation , he hit power lines whilst attempting a crash landing. The father of the Sturm idea was dead. His was a loss that was keenly felt by the young and inexperienced pilots to whom he had become a father figure ( Ersatzvater ) . The new Gruppenkommandeur was Major Gerhard Schroeder, formerly of KG51.
     
  14. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor
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    Interesting stuff Erich.
     
  15. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Erich, you mention 30 B-26s were shot down on Dec 23 1944.

    Do you have any other information about this?

    Since this was the time of the Battle of the Buldge, did these Sturm units fly support for this offensive, or kept back as a reserve against any 8th AF missions?
     
  16. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    yes I do and I can tell you the B-26 histoprians are hiding the facts from all of us. Out of any US bomber groups the B-26 ones in the ETO have the smallest of the small when it comes to information released to the public through the Historical archivs or the historians of individual bomb groups upon their own admission; conveniently lost...........

    Fw 190's of JG 11 and IV.Sturm/JG 3 took it to them during the heavy aerial battels over the Ardenne.

    Both these gruppen were vectored upong the twin engine units the date I covered and inf act for JG 3 they thought they were going after B-17's as a cloud deck seperated them and the US bombers as they were not visible
     
  17. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Excellent info...
     
  18. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Les, syscom a friend Oskar Bosch was on this particular defence op and it is probably archived as I included a brief of his story. He lost full power nearly and a fuel line was severed by the tail position on one of the B-26's and as his staffel zoomed forward on the attack Oskar's SturmFw slowed down to almost a crawl and the remaining B-26's let go with their .50's riddling his Sturm. he banked away to be pursued by a solo P-47 which then abandoned Oskar as the German pilot let his heavy Sturmbocke drop like a rock to earth and the last moments bailed out. Oskar still has some momentos of this striken Fw in his small collection at home and in interviews with me has mentioned it was another day that God protected him as he should of been killed .....

    Oskar and his 14Sturmstaffel with his Schwarze 14 on the left. Oskar is on the right in the sommer Lederjacke. Cica Decvember of 44..... The pic and article front is from friend neil pages Sturm pages in the UK mag SAM several years ago. i supplied the copy of the original photo
     

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  19. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Erich, this is quite interesting about the B26's. Im going to do some investigating about it. Thanks for the heads up!

    On another note - Did you ever correspond with a Me262 pilot that lived in Los Angeles in the 70's and 80's? I think he worked for TWA.
     
  20. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Syscom good luck and I hope you are more successwful than me. Yes I know a former bomber-fighter Me 262 pilot in your area who actually was wounded on a jet bomber mission during 45, his previous service had been on the Ost front and over England earlier in the war with the Me 410. Sad the guy is a die hard in my opinion
     
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