SturmFw's

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Erich:

I recall your comments regarding this particular battle in some other thread in the past.

In the past several of the members unleashed rants on me because of my constant remarks regarding the lies, distortions and manipulations of the allied propaganda -namely of the USA and England- both during and after the war.

What Erich has commented here emerges as sound evidence to prove they have lied, distorted and/or concealed information about episodes when they got gutted by the enemy.

Right, this is just one case, the air battles of December 23, 1944. Many others have been detected as well.

The interesting point is, how many material facts have been knowingly and willfuly concealed, falsified or manipulated in any manner whatsoever that most of us are not still aware of?
 
Udet said:
Erich:

I recall your comments regarding this particular battle in some other thread in the past.

In the past several of the members unleashed rants on me because of my constant remarks regarding the lies, distortions and manipulations of the allied propaganda -namely of the USA and England- both during and after the war.

What Erich has commented here emerges as sound evidence to prove they have lied, distorted and/or concealed information about episodes when they got gutted by the enemy.

Right, this is just one case, the air battles of December 23, 1944. Many others have been detected as well.

The interesting point is, how many material facts have been knowingly and willfuly concealed, falsified or manipulated in any manner whatsoever that most of us are not still aware of?
Click to expand...


Nah Udet. I think its because you make your own claims about Allied 'lies, distortions and manipulations' while taking similar German claims at face value. I don't have issue with you, just when your apparent "Deutschland uber alles" attitude runs amok. The truth is often far more complex that you seem willing to realise.

The claims during the war and in the immediate post war period all have to be taken with a grain or two of salt, often some very large ones at that. However, there has been some 50 years of serious scholarship put in on the subject, most of which you seem to dismiss because it doesn't agree with your point of view. Case in point your views of the Sealion operation in Sorens 'really what if' thread.
 
Jabber:

(1) If you decide to have issues with me, go ahead, I won´t mind.

(2) I can guarantee you a rough going attempting to prove "I am making my own claims" against the allies.


Now, in view of your comments, it is about prudent to illustrate you how is it that I function here:

Unlike the allied side advocators, when one is attempting to "defend" the view of the defeated side of a war -Germany in this case- he will have to climb his way up from the very bottom of the pit.

A hell of a pit when the defeated is the Germany of World War II.

Believe me, although I consider myself a young creature, I am not a prat to defend what can not be defended.

It´s plentiful of elements here and there to prove you they lie, conceal and distort.

Although the Gold Medal for propaganda services lies in the neck of the soviets, the propaganda of the western kids was also very prolific.


Allied advocators are everywhere, in huge numbers, available to show up and sing the "we had better engines, better cooling systems, better guns, better ammo, better fuselages, better pilots, better tactics, better everything" old song.

Right, the majority of the most frequent posters here in this forum are people who have either read, researched, travelled and met with veterans who were there, making their opinions way more balanced, still I am not here to praise the allied effort for it has been praised for 60 years so far.

So my point for start is the very bottom of the pit, with solid elements to climb and to eventually emerge to the surface.
 
Allied Axis and Soviet kill numbers are usually heavily exaggerated, whether in planes tanks or on foot, so I don't get involved in (lies, damned lies and) figures. Some unbeleivable feats will be actually true though.

However stories, they are interesting.
 
I found some information that shows Erich was correct. The 391st and 397th BG's were hammered hard, and I mean HAMMERED HARD!!!! I looked at all the MACR's for this date and sorted the data for B26's and 9th AF. Heres the results.

Unit histories can gloss over loss's, but they cant lie about the MACR's.

"The newly minted Army Air Corps went to the flight surgeon with a complaint. He said, "Doc, I'm constipated all the time, what can I do?" After examination, the Doc said, "I can give you a strong laxative, or assign you to a B-26 outfit!" - hehehehehehehehe

Note - Worldwide, there were 77 total aircraft loss's on this date (only for AAF)

MACR # Date A/C Type Serial # Group Squadron
 11659  12/23/1944  B-26  41-31896  323
 11403  12/23/1944  B-26  42-10757 387
 11464  12/23/1944  B-26  42-10759 387  559
 11465  12/23/1944  B-26  41-31657  387
 11482  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95869  387  559
 11485  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95838  391  574
 11486  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34440  391  575
 11551  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95932  391  575
 11651  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34309  391  574
 11660  12/23/1944  B-26  44-67826  391  574
 11661  12/23/1944  B-26  42-107671 391  575
 11662  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95825  391  573
 11663  12/23/1944  B-26  42-107747 391  573
 11664  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95865  391  574
 11669  12/23/1944  B-26  42-107597 391  574
 11670  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95844  391  575
 11671  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95841  391  574
 11672  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34361  391  574
 11673  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95798  391  574
 11674  12/23/1944  B-26  41-35010  391  574
 11677  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95818  391  574
 11876  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95878  391
 11402  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96061  394  584
 10877  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96309  397
 11349  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96280  397
 11483  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96144  397  596
 11487  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96182  397
 11490  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34434  397
 11549  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34221  397
 11897  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34159  397
 11898  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34185  397
 11985  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34430  397
 11986  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34139  397
 13039  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34136  397
 
Syscom well you got farther than me I must say with the two twin engine groups. I wrote both the group historians some years back and was given the answer that I mentioned...........the info is lost. "Can I at least get the amount of losses and the squadrons ? " Nope ! was the replies. All I can say is I hope those two guys have retired and someone else with a little more say and gratitude that I was even trying to get the real story correct and not German/US Bullshit.

For December 23, 1944 here is what the Luftwaffe reported:

135 Luftw. A/C destroyed wioth another 64 with 60 % damage or less. 64 German crewmen KIA with 4 POW and 36 wounded; talk about a rough action !

IV.Sturm/JG 3 calimed 35 B-26's and were given credit for 31 of them, and 1 P-47

I./JG 11 also flying the Fw 190A-8 had 18 B-26 claims with 2 P-47 and 2 P-51's.

there is a monstrous hoidge podge of German gruppen that got mixed up and attacked anything that was Allied and of course with the above losses felt the sting of numercial superiority.

I./JG 1 3 P-47
III./JG 1 1 B-17, 1 B-17HSS
I./JG 2 5 B-26
II./JG 2 1 B-26, 1 P-47
III./JG 2 3 P-47
III./JG 3 3 B-26
I./JG 4 1 Spitfire
III./JG 4 1 P-51
IV./JG 4 3 P-47
II./JG 11 7 B-26, 1 P-47, 1 P-38
III./JG 11 11 P-47
I./JG 26 3 B-26
II./JG 26 6 Lancasters, 1 Mossie, 1 P-51
II./JG 27 1 B-17HSS
III./JG 27 3 P-47
IV./JG 27 1 P-47, 2 P-51
III./JG 54 2 B-26
IV./JG 54 flying Fw 190A-8's : 2 B-26, 2 P-47
I./JG 77 1 B-26, 1 P-38
III./JG 77 3 P-47

Danny parker in his book "To win the winter sky" hardly says much about this date except the Luftwaffe got pounded...........I personjally think his work is crap though. By the way the high scorers agasint B-26's, I./JG 11 lost 16 Fw's most to Allied escorts and the IV.Sturm/JG 3 lost 8 Sturms, one of them was Oskars

E ~
 
Erich, is it possible a few of the B26 loss's were due to flak? Also, did any of the German fighter loss's ultimatley were figured to be due to damage from their own AA?
 
Heres a list of all worldwide USAAF aircraft losses on Dec 23rd 1944.

I havent sliced and diced it for 8th and 9th AF loss's only, but it seems, most of the losses are from those units.

MACR # Date A/C Type Serial # Group Squadron
 10846  12/23/1944  A-20  44-617  47
 11346  12/23/1944  B-17  44-6619  94  331
 10934  12/23/1944  B-24  44-49336  885
 12257  12/23/1944  B-25  43-4178  7
 14626  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95878  1
 11590  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34238  17
 11591  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95753  320
 11659  12/23/1944  B-26  41-31896  323
 11464  12/23/1944  B-26  42-107598 387  559
 11482  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95869  387  559
 11403  12/23/1944  B-26  42-107577 387
 11465  12/23/1944  B-26  41-31657  387
 11662  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95825  391  573
 11663  12/23/1944  B-26  42-107747 391  573
 11485  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95838  391  574
 11651  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34309  391  574
 11660  12/23/1944  B-26  44-67826  391  574
 11664  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95865  391  574
 11669  12/23/1944  B-26  42-107597 391  574
 11671  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95841  391  574
 11672  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34361  391  574
 11673  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95798  391  574
 11674  12/23/1944  B-26  41-35010  391  574
 11677  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95818  391  574
 11486  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34440  391  575
 11551  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95932  391  575
 11661  12/23/1944  B-26  42-107671 391  575
 11670  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95844  391  575
 11876  12/23/1944  B-26  42-95878  391
 11402  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96061  394  584
 11483  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96144  397  596
 10877  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96309  397
 11349  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96280  397
 11487  12/23/1944  B-26  42-96182  397
 11490  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34434  397
 11549  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34221  397
 11897  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34159  397
 11898  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34185  397
 11985  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34430  397
 11986  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34139  397
 13039  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34136  397
 11404  12/23/1944  B-26  43-34423  450
 10695  12/23/1944  C-47  43-48407  435  76
 10696  12/23/1944  C-47  43-48938  435
 10706  12/23/1944  C-47  43-30731  435
 11024  12/23/1944  C-47  42-92087  438
 10697  12/23/1944  C-47  42-100870 441
 11025  12/23/1944  C-47  43-48056  9
 11026  12/23/1944  C-47  43-47972  9
 11027  12/23/1944  C-47  43-47963  9
 11167  12/23/1944  F-5  44-23603  7
 11406  12/23/1944  F-6  42-103226 67
 11420  12/23/1944  P-38  42-62004  367  392
 11413  12/23/1944  P-38  42-68081  474
 14557  12/23/1944  P-47  42-28827  350
 11607  12/23/1944  P-47  42-76267  358
 11443  12/23/1944  P-47  42-28815  36
 11446  12/23/1944  P-47  42-75860  36
 11503  12/23/1944  P-47  42-74735  36
 11435  12/23/1944  P-47  42-76437  362
 11428  12/23/1944  P-47  42-76482  368
 11489  12/23/1944  P-47  44-19916  368
 11436  12/23/1944  P-47  44-20263  373
 11437  12/23/1944  P-47  42-28425  373
 11445  12/23/1944  P-47  42-28411  373
 11493  12/23/1944  P-47  42-26942  373
 11416  12/23/1944  P-47  44-19748  406
 11422  12/23/1944  P-47  42-29214  406
 11085  12/23/1944  P-47  44-19767  56  62
 11307  12/23/1944  P-47  44-20615  56  62
 11306  12/23/1944  P-47  44-19911  56  63
 10966  12/23/1944  P-51  44-11117  23
 10734  12/23/1944  P-51  44-15144  332
 11328  12/23/1944  P-51  44-11689  357  362
 11461  12/23/1944  P-51  44-14064  361  375
 11072  12/23/1944  P-51  44-14596  479  434
 11081  12/23/1944  P-51  44-13643  55  343
 
German losses were due to Luftkampf (fighter combat).

Weird but even the 4 engine heavies crews though the Minengeschoss rounds of 2cm and 3cm felt like Flak; no doubt the B-26 crewmen thought the same thing.

December 24, 1944 is another tradgedy which I covered who knows when. this is the operation that was led by ............anyway some of this coverage was to be present on our sturm website some years ago but has not materialized yeet as the association contact failed to write me back/487th US bg.

For once the Luftwaffe managed to get the drop on the Americans. German SturmFw's suddenly pounced on the unprotected box of Heavy bombers as they crossed the Meuse River. Lt. General Castle was in one of the 487th bg B-17's which had an engine malfunction and had fallen out and slightly back of formation, when a gaggle of Fw's suddenly appeared. IV.Sturm/JG 3 spotted the bombers while they were passing Liege Belgiium. The US fighters were not in position (a rarity) to help, so a rear attack developed.
Immediately 7 B-17's burst into flame and 2 others so badly damaged they struggled to keep formation and a forced landings to destruction.

30 SturmFw's were in the attack and a small group of Sturms broke away in front which did the overall damage. 3 boxes were attacked in the 487th at 22,000 feet via Y-control.
Fw. Wilhelm Hofensitz picked out the outer B-17 on the starboard side of the middle box. Attacking from above with his four cannon, the B-17 went spiraling out of control. On a seceond attack Wihelm's machine was hit by a B-17 70 feet below him, hitting his engine and causing a fire whcih then he bailed out. His wingman Obergefreiter Hubert Hirschfelder was shot down by the tail gunner of the B-17 he was attacking, Hubert also bailing out but the B-17 also going down to the severe heavy Minen rounds.

General Castle's Treble Four was hit broadside as Castle struggled to get back to the rear of a protective box of bombers. he would not jettison the B-17 bomb load, fearing he would kill civilians and or Allied troops. As the B-17 crew parachuted, a SturmFw came in with it's cannon firing, and severed one of the wings at the root, the B-17 went into a high speed spin smashing into the ground at Rotheux Rimieres, Belgiium.

8 SturmFw pilots calimed victories and 2 other B-17's HSS/ shot out of formation. SturmFw losses amounted to 6 with 5 pilots bailing out POW and 1 KIA. Ace Wolfgang Kosse flying an Fw 190A-9 was shot down in combat with a group of Typhoons in the area of Lüttich as well as two other Fw pilots, names unknown.

A German pilots account who shot down two of the B-17's, Karl Kapteina.

Cockpit readiness was ordered at 11.15. The order to scramble came through 15 minutes later. Around thirty of the Gruppes fighters got airborne and climbed away behind the machine of Hptm Weydenhammer, assembling over the field before climbing to an altitude of 7,000 metres. guided by the Y-Führung, we were vectored to meet the incoming 3BD Boeings over the Lüttich sector. No escorting fighters accompanied the Sturmgruppe and there was no forming up into a battle formation. the Gruppe had been up for well over an hour and over Belgiium and thus Allied held territory, when three large boxes of B-17's were sighted. the bombers were themselves still climbing for altitude and were thus not covered by fighters at that time.

I detected a perceptible sense of unease in the formation. My comrades tightened up closer and Hptm Weydenhammer led us in a wide sweep to port, gaining some 300m altitude, bringing the formation around into the attacking position behind the bombers (487th bg survivors say the Sturms attacked from the front, which was not true). We were now some 200m higer and trailing some 800m behind the enemy bomber formation. Our Kommandeur radioed back our ground control....We are attacking now! Throttles wide open, our ships accelerated to draw rapidly within firing range. We had selected the bomber formation flying furthest out wide to the left as our targer. Ott, who was flying the machine nearest to me on my right hand side, was all over the place and, fearful of a collision, I had to keep a very close eye on his manuevers. then I had to draw a bead, in other words, select a targer in the reflecting sight. with my initial salvos i raked the tail-gunners compartment leaving it riddled (more like blown off). Easing my aim onto the wings I hammered away with everything I'd got. In the meantime I'd drawn in so close that debris from the bomber's fin and rudder was flying around my ears. by now flames had erupted from many points on the bomber's upper surfaces'; as it's undercarriage dropped down, the machine tipped over on it's port wing and went down. I didn't have time to see if any of the crew were able to bail out. As the bomber plunged earthwards I saw my comrade Hopfensitz going down, trailing a banner of white smoke.......
After diving 500 metres down under the bombers I shot a glance back up at the formation (pulk) under attack. It now comprised just a confused mass of burning aircraft in their death throes. two or three untouched bombers were attempting to fly evasive manuevers. they also had to be brought down ! with my spirits high, I pulled up the nose of my fighter and with my momentum climbed quickly back to their altitude. I noticed that a 16th staffel machine had also climbed back up and was now closing on one of the bomber's tails. Seeing this, three bomber crew threw themselves clear before the Fw even fired a shot. the entire B-17 soon followed them down as the Fw raked it with fire. I had meanwhile close to within 500m of a new target. three shapes jumped clear. by now the bomber was flying evasive maneuvers and at a range of 200m I pressed the firing button for the 2cm cannon, lossing off short bursts; once I could see hits I opened up with the 3cm cannons, spraying the bombers wings. My fire was frighteningly effective. the netire machine had erupted in flames and seconds later the wing peeled back off at the port outer engine ............

the 487th was heading for Germany when attacked. thanks to friend Neil Page for translating Karl's acct. one day we will get this re-written and placed on the site
 
Wow great info Erich.

Udet I think the reason people jump on you and the problem is because of they way you come across.
 
If theres a "blank" spot in what I (and probably others) have is the history of the Luftwaffe against the 9th AF.

As Erich has shown, there were some intense air battles that have not seen much publicity.

No doubt other encounters (although probably not on a scale like Dec 23rd) occured. And this is also probably true for the Brits and their tactical AF.
 
this is for Les or anyone that is antcipating a purchase of the new Sturmgruppen in the elite units # 20 series.

my comments start with the profiles section and then into some of the captioned photos and please excuse the randomenss of some of the sentancing......

Right now I can say the profiles are just plain terrible. Numerals on all the aircraft of the wrong size.. Spiralschnuazes are wrong. Maxis schwarze 8 does not have a red/yellow spinner it is black/yellow. Blue 13 does not have the white rumpfband with black welle.
yellow 17 was not W. Ungers mount
Wappenshields on JG 4 Sturms are incorrect.
Gefreiter Wagners Weiße 11 did not have outboard Mk 108's they were 2cm weapons, the white 11 is incorrect.
Salffners white 6 is incorrect and the machine did not have outboard Nk 108's either but 2cm weapons.

guess I should stop here but looking at the photo clarity it is not overly good, every photo I have seen in other books and I have the cine films that the still are taken of. Real quick Walter Loos did not serve in IV.Sturm/JG 3 Sturm Fw unit, he did fly Bf 109G-6 with the Br 21cm rocket launchers in the old IV./JG 3.............phot caption on pg 37. Back a couple of pages for Oskar Bösch, pg. 34 lower left pic of his A-6. Two mechnaics not Oskar are in the pic.
Bottom of page 36 is Moritz, Haase and the SturmFw JG 3 adjutant to Moritz, taken during the summer of 44.
last comment for now, page 49 lower pic is the same as the following page black 8. Weal must have had too much coffee or something as the "blinkers" he calls them are not present on the a/c in either pic. the pics are of the same a/c, he is incorrect.

pg 52 and 53 Maxi's kill, I have the cine film the B-17 is totally wasted from the left side which the pics do not show, 2cm and 3cm fire cause internal explosions with much debris blowing out the left side of the a/c.
page 54 is from 27 September 1944 showing a 445th bg B-24 getting pounded from 2cm and 3cm fire; I have the cine film.

pg 59, Weal does not seem to know which is Dahls a/c. He says black 13 is E.Tichy's and then says it is Dahls blue 13. does not seem familiar with blue 13 in several variations flown by Dahl in Stab./JG 300.
Second pic on that page is black 13 of 11.Sturm/JG 3 and what Weal did not investigate was white 13 sitting right next to black 13 on the left of it. White 13 of course was in 10.Sturm/JG 3 ..............ok enough picking the book apart for tonight, more later ......

E
 
more ...........

The Oschersleben sequence is off the cine films which I own and are actually running about 5 minutes or more in length. The Staffeln birds have an array of arms, some mg cowling mounts, some outboard Mk 108's and some with outboard 2cm weapons. Even the markings are not quite consistent yet but would be very soon with 10th and 11th staffel spirals being white, 12th staffel being yellow and 2./JG 51's red, and then all 4 staffeln the standard white. Weal in the profiles makes JG 3 Sturms cowling solid black but indeed there is a hint of blue in the black.
Back to the cine film of the Sturms flying over parked a/c, yes nearly everyone of the Fw's have Scheuklappen installed. Weal makes an impression about one Sturm a/c in particular that has the mg cowling lifted and with no mg 131's. Interesting that this 1 a/c seems to have a white rudder fitted, I cannot see the numeral on the fuselage.

Back to the profile just briefly, yellow 12 Paul Lixfeldts machine the profile is incorrect as the nose ring is not the right colour nor the spinner details, I would rather not make too much comment on JG 300 machines as they will be covered in the Frenchmans second volume unit history.

page 81 upper right corner photo is Black 1 A-7/MK in spring of 1944, fitted with Mk 108 outboard no heavy armor inclusion. The a/c was flown by a Staffelkapitän Fritz Engau within I. gruppe/JG 11.

page 87 photo of Klaus Richter supposedly of 5th staffel JG 300. Weal says this is red 4. this is the first JG 300 unit with Scheuklappen fitted that I have seen though have seen the photo elsewhere. My conclusion of seeing this offizier in another pic with the tail of this SturmFw and another in the background with those "blinkers" fitteed is that this is not Klaus but a II/JG 4 pilot as the rumpfband in the background photo of the one I mentioned appears to be black white black and not the blue-white-blue and besisdes why would a JG 300 December 44 till wars end be fitted with the canopy armor when JG 300 resisted the installment due to icing problems ? ......... my take on it anyway.

pages 104/105, friend Oskar Bösch on his A-8/R2 in August 44, Weal then says on page 105 this is the same black 14 with 14th staffel kameraden, it is not. December 44 Black 14 a different SturmFw of his. A line up photo that is owned as original from Barry Smith, I have a copy and Neil used this as his wonderful header in the SAM SturmFw article he wrote several years back.

so at this point looking through the photo selection, yes Prien was used, Mombeeks was used Price was used, and the JG 300 materials from German author Bernd Barbas in his old Luftwaffe Aces tomes. Much of the JG 300 items shown on B.O.'s JG 300 web-site and am sure all will be in the second volume of JG 300 produced soon, several already are in the first volume. Also of note is the useage of Bethkes JG 300 work, so this maybe the base of the JG 300 photos .... ?

more coming....... the comment on the text
 
guys quickly as my hands are fading real fast, this is the pic that is used in the osprey book on at least two occassions, also used in Neil's fine work:

Scale Aircraft Modelling vol. 23, number 1, March 2001.

pick up a copy and I will add some comments about some of the changes we did....later. I included several photos with one in colour for Neil
 

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