lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Great stuff..
SturmFw's
- Thread starter Erich
- Start date
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CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Snif...snif...I get melancolic for the large amount of info, Thank so much Erich, I stole it and became the translation to the spanish. 
Off course giving the source:
Off course giving the source:
- Thread starter
- #63
Erich
the old Sage
CB if you are using "all" of this thread for a web-site I would appreciate the url. also I have just been sent some stimulating reports covering the 27 Septmeber 44 route of the 445th bg. I would advise CB you delete the materials covering the raid as I need to rewrite them and there are errors within the old operational text that I wrote
E ~
E ~
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
No problem, I still dont post nothing yet.
- Thread starter
- #65
Erich
the old Sage
Walter Loos, blue 14, Stab./JG 300. most of his victories in JG 300 cannot be confirmed ! wingman to another guy who put in for bogus claims, Geschwaderkommodore Walter Dahl
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
He,he yes indeed I love the leather jacket, the shoes are not the Lutwaffe flying boots.
I see numbers between 29 and 36 viermots atributed to Dahl, what you think..?
I see numbers between 29 and 36 viermots atributed to Dahl, what you think..?
- Thread starter
- #67
Erich
the old Sage
the lower number probably is correct. Ever since Dahl became the Kommodore for JG 300 he claimed the glory on 3/4rs of the SturmFw missions for himself and his Geschwader. There is still so much confusion as to which sturmgruppe claimed the correct amount of Heavy bombers when more than one gruppe attacked enmasse with one another. Wood's listing cannot even be trusted, and since I have mentioned the lack of confirmed documentation from the fall of 44 till wars end it doubly makes it heven harder.......
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Alot of people dispute Dahl's claims, and rightly so...
- Thread starter
- #69
Erich
the old Sage
it atually starts on the huge air battel of 7-7-44 over Oschersleben. Rad Dahl's rammjäger book and you see what I mean. there is much fantasy reading to be had in it ............ kinda like Pierre Closterman's big show
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I can find 2 refrences, 18 and 19 kills confirmed....
Thanks for your reply, the book I keep at my computer for reference states 22 four motor and a total of 38 victoris. from Horrido. Jg 300 book shows 6 vic through sept 1944. what scources were you quoting from lesofprimus? any how as Erich is a friend of sorts I would like to hear his take....
Kevin
Ps, looking at pictures of Dahl, to me he just looks like a B.S'R. always looks perfect for the camera too.............
Kevin
Ps, looking at pictures of Dahl, to me he just looks like a B.S'R. always looks perfect for the camera too.............
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
One source was http://www.luftwaffe.cz/loosw.html
The other is from memory of an article from Neil Page...
I do seem to recall an interview with Loos in which he stated that he felt HIS performance directly affected the WHOLE Gruppes moral.... Maybe some insight as to some of his bolstered claims???
EIther way, he was a hell of a pilot and got to fly the baddest prop kite of the war, the Ta-152H-1....
The other is from memory of an article from Neil Page...
I do seem to recall an interview with Loos in which he stated that he felt HIS performance directly affected the WHOLE Gruppes moral.... Maybe some insight as to some of his bolstered claims???
EIther way, he was a hell of a pilot and got to fly the baddest prop kite of the war, the Ta-152H-1....
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Erich said:
My info shows that the 14th Bomb Wing was hit hard on the bomb run. The 492nd BG had 12 loss's that day.
Well Erich, do you have more info on what happened as seen from the German perspective?
- Thread starter
- #77
Erich
the old Sage
last shot is of Dahl in his Stab III./JG 3 Bf 109G-6.
I won't even guess as to how many kills Dahl or Loos had. Much of what Petr has on the RK winners is from Obermaiers fighter aces history and although excellent has errors within. Great piece of work though.
syscom our web-site covers a bit on the raid but I guess I need to pull out all my notes and further this. ZG 26 was also involved with Me 410's but they did not account for much. IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 3 plus the high cover 109G-6's of I./JG 300 accounted for 55 US heavy bombers on 7-7-44. the 8th and the 15th AF both felt the SturmFw sting ......
I won't even guess as to how many kills Dahl or Loos had. Much of what Petr has on the RK winners is from Obermaiers fighter aces history and although excellent has errors within. Great piece of work though.
syscom our web-site covers a bit on the raid but I guess I need to pull out all my notes and further this. ZG 26 was also involved with Me 410's but they did not account for much. IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 3 plus the high cover 109G-6's of I./JG 300 accounted for 55 US heavy bombers on 7-7-44. the 8th and the 15th AF both felt the SturmFw sting ......
- Thread starter
- #79
Erich
the old Sage
to 7-7-44 and the confusion, here is official US AF documentation:
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 458: 1,129 bombers and
756 fighters are dispatched to attack synthetic oil plants, aircraft assembly
plants and engine works, airfields and an equipment depot, marshalling yards
railway station and railway repair shops in Germany; 37 bombers and 6
fighters are lost:
1. Of 373 B-24s, 102 hit Lutzkendorf and 64 hit Halle oil plants, 90 hit
Bernburg and 73 hit Aschersleben aircraft plants and 8 hit targets of
opportunity; they claim 39-5-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 28 B-24s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 126 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 274 MIA.
Escort is provided by 224 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 46-1-16
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA).
2. Of 303 B-17s, 64 hit Bohlen and 51 hit Merseburg oil plants, 67 hit
Kolleda and 32 hit Lutzkendorf Airfields, 22 hit targets of opportunity and
16 hit Gottingen marshalling yard; 2 B-17s are lost and 112 damaged; 3 airmen
are WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 185 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they
claim 9-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-1 on the ground; 1 P-47 and
1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
3. Of 453 B-17s, 114 hit Leipzig/Taucha, 79 hit Leipzig/Mockau, 35 hit
Leipzig/Heiterblick and 15 hit Leipzig/Abtnaundorf oil plants, 46 hit Leipzig
bearing industry, 35 hit Kolleda Airfield, 19 hit Leipzig Station and 7 hit
Nordhausen; 7 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 152 damaged; 15
airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 50 MIA. Escort is provided by 247 P-47s and P-51s;
they claim 20-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 1
P-51 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA).
Mission 459: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the
night.
TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 100+ A-20s and B-26s bomb
rail bridge near Tours, and targets of opportunity in the Lisieux and
Beuzeville areas; 500+ fighters fly escort and area cover, carry out armed
reconnaissance of communication and troop activity, and bomb railroads,
rolling stock, marshalling yards, ammunition dumps, and bridges in frontline
areas and wide areas of W France; HQ 36th Fighter Group moves from
Kingsnorth, England to Brucheville; and the 377th, 378th and 379th Fighter
Squadrons, 362d Fighter Group, move from Headcorn, England to Lignerolles
with P-47s. In England, the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves
from Stony Cross to Ibsley with P-38s.
MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 560+ bombers attack in Germany
and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb 2 synthetic oil plants at Blechhammer, Germany;
B-24s also hit Blechhammer and a synthetic oil and coking plant at Odertal,
Germany and Zagreb, Yugoslavia Airfield and marshalling yard; the bombers and
fighter escorts claim 50+ aircraft shot down during fierce battle with 275-
300 fighters mainly in the Vienna-Budapest area; 18 US aircraft are listed as
destroyed and a larger number missing.
be aware that many of the 15th AF bombers flew northwad and were subject to SturmFw attacks
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 458: 1,129 bombers and
756 fighters are dispatched to attack synthetic oil plants, aircraft assembly
plants and engine works, airfields and an equipment depot, marshalling yards
railway station and railway repair shops in Germany; 37 bombers and 6
fighters are lost:
1. Of 373 B-24s, 102 hit Lutzkendorf and 64 hit Halle oil plants, 90 hit
Bernburg and 73 hit Aschersleben aircraft plants and 8 hit targets of
opportunity; they claim 39-5-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 28 B-24s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 126 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 274 MIA.
Escort is provided by 224 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 46-1-16
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA).
2. Of 303 B-17s, 64 hit Bohlen and 51 hit Merseburg oil plants, 67 hit
Kolleda and 32 hit Lutzkendorf Airfields, 22 hit targets of opportunity and
16 hit Gottingen marshalling yard; 2 B-17s are lost and 112 damaged; 3 airmen
are WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 185 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they
claim 9-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-1 on the ground; 1 P-47 and
1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
3. Of 453 B-17s, 114 hit Leipzig/Taucha, 79 hit Leipzig/Mockau, 35 hit
Leipzig/Heiterblick and 15 hit Leipzig/Abtnaundorf oil plants, 46 hit Leipzig
bearing industry, 35 hit Kolleda Airfield, 19 hit Leipzig Station and 7 hit
Nordhausen; 7 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 152 damaged; 15
airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 50 MIA. Escort is provided by 247 P-47s and P-51s;
they claim 20-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 1
P-51 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA).
Mission 459: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the
night.
TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 100+ A-20s and B-26s bomb
rail bridge near Tours, and targets of opportunity in the Lisieux and
Beuzeville areas; 500+ fighters fly escort and area cover, carry out armed
reconnaissance of communication and troop activity, and bomb railroads,
rolling stock, marshalling yards, ammunition dumps, and bridges in frontline
areas and wide areas of W France; HQ 36th Fighter Group moves from
Kingsnorth, England to Brucheville; and the 377th, 378th and 379th Fighter
Squadrons, 362d Fighter Group, move from Headcorn, England to Lignerolles
with P-47s. In England, the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves
from Stony Cross to Ibsley with P-38s.
MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 560+ bombers attack in Germany
and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb 2 synthetic oil plants at Blechhammer, Germany;
B-24s also hit Blechhammer and a synthetic oil and coking plant at Odertal,
Germany and Zagreb, Yugoslavia Airfield and marshalling yard; the bombers and
fighter escorts claim 50+ aircraft shot down during fierce battle with 275-
300 fighters mainly in the Vienna-Budapest area; 18 US aircraft are listed as
destroyed and a larger number missing.
be aware that many of the 15th AF bombers flew northwad and were subject to SturmFw attacks
Good info Erich!