Sub attack on Sydney

[no.235]

hey does anybody have quotes for the attacks on sydney in world war two?

 

[RabidAlien]

Read the book "touched with fire" by Eric Bergerud.

He has plenty of interviews with allied veterans from the SW Pacific that will tell you exactly how brutal and savage the fighting was there. Dead Japanese soldiers were just bulldozed into pits with no fanfare or dignity.

I thought this was more a matter of expediency than of dishonor. In the Pacific theater, with the heat, humidty, flies, rats, and other very nasty diseases, disposing of bodies (allies or enemies) quickly was paramount. Its understandable that you would treat your own fallen with all due respect, but with the large numbers of IJA dead that were found on battlefields, there typically wasn't time to bury individuals. Mass graves were marked, and (once again, read this somewhere but can't recall exact source) appropriate measures taken after the war to either exhume and return remains, where possible, or at least erect a monument of some type. But after seeing what the Japanese did to the bodies of our soldiers, its completely understandable that no "above and beyond" measures were taken by our forces. For the most part, they acted in accordance with established rules of conduct. Say what you will about mass graves, none of their dead were hacked apart, eaten, defiled, or POW's executed for no reason whatsoever. That, to me, is fanfare, considering the type of warfare currently going on in the Pacific.

 

[Watanbe]

To be honest I'm sure on the front line the Aussies and the Japs would of hated eachother with a passion and had little respect for eachothers dead. The corpses were probably just a dangerous, smelly, disease attracting problem. I'm sure in terms of governments the Western countries were respectful enough to handle things diplomatically, but on the front line, I'm sure there was very little love lost.

 

[Watanbe]

I also couldn't help but read on one of those links Wildcat that it said the crew of the German U-Boat U-862 landed near the Coorong (a large freshwater lake near near Goolwa and Victor Harbour) to take on freshwater. I wonder if this is true? I'm very interested to know more if this is the case!

 

[Wildcat]

I wouldn't doubt it, German subs and commerce raiders were active around southern Australian waters early on in the war, so it's entirely possible some sailors come ashore on the more remote parts of the country.

 

[Watanbe]

I did a bit of reading on U-Boat U-862 it seems it proved to be quite a nuisance. How were these U-Boats supplied? Did the Japanese fit them out or what? There can't have been many neutral ports in the Pacific in WW2. Its almost hard to envisage (for someone my age anyway) that Australia was ever under attack or had its waters threatened.

 

[Shinpachi]

I thought this was more a matter of expediency than of dishonor. In the Pacific theater, with the heat, humidty, flies, rats, and other very nasty diseases, disposing of bodies (allies or enemies) quickly was paramount. Its understandable that you would treat your own fallen with all due respect, but with the large numbers of IJA dead that were found on battlefields, there typically wasn't time to bury individuals. Mass graves were marked, and (once again, read this somewhere but can't recall exact source) appropriate measures taken after the war to either exhume and return remains, where possible, or at least erect a monument of some type. But after seeing what the Japanese did to the bodies of our soldiers, its completely understandable that no "above and beyond" measures were taken by our forces. For the most part, they acted in accordance with established rules of conduct. Say what you will about mass graves, none of their dead were hacked apart, eaten, defiled, or POW's executed for no reason whatsoever. That, to me, is fanfare, considering the type of warfare currently going on in the Pacific.

I agree with RabidAlien.
I have ever heard of a lot of testimonies about the gentlemanship of the allies soldiers.

 

[Messy1]

Thanks Wildcat.

The IJN had a fascination with these midget subs. I think the sinking of that small ship at Sydney was the only known success for them in the whole war.

Some historians say that a midget sub got inot Pearl harbor successfully on Dec 7 1941 and actually fired its torpedo's at a battleship, but the evidence is slim.

The only other known sinking was of a US tanker at Ulithi atoll in 1944. But I think that was a manned torpedo, not a midget sub.

I have watched a show on the Military channel several times called Secrets of Pearl Harbor. There is a spot in one photo, where there is a unidentified object in the water, and there are some unexplained rooster tails in the water behind this object. The arguement is that this mystery object is in fact one of the mini subs, and the rooster tails are a result of the subs front and back rocking in the water and the prop coming out of and back into the water after the sub has just fired it's two torpedoes, and the sub is settling back down. There are supposed to be two tracks in the water ahead of the "sub" that are argued to be it's torpedoes that is had just fired. If you ever get a chance to watch that show, do so. It is very interesting and really makes some good points, but nothing was ever really conclusive enough to prove that the object was a midget sub.

 

[Messy1]

Shinpachi, this would be interesting to hear from your perspective.

 

[HerrKaleut]

The attack on Sydney harbour is described in Raymond Lamont-Brown's book "Kamikaze-Japan's suicide samurai". They were "HAI"(Flies) 2 torpedo subs and at the harbour of Diego Suarez (Madagascar) one of these sank the tanker LOYALTY and damaged the battleship Ramillies.The crew were asphyxiated by chlorine gas and the sub drifted ashore.
At Sydney 5 subs, I-21,,I-22, I 24,I-27 and I-29 approached to 7 miles of the harbour and 22,24 ,27 and 29 released their mini-subs. ( 21 was carrying an Aichi E16A1 Zuin .." Auspicious Cloud "or" Paul" recon float plane). One of the mini subs became entangled in the anti sub. net.
They saw and attacked the USS Chicago and HMAS Canberra and a suply vessel. One of the subs had a torpdo stick in the tube which exploded. This alerted all the ships and erratic gunfire began. The remaining subs fired but were forced to the surface and sunk. One torpedo hit the shore , and one hit and sank a ferry.


Talking of Japanese behaviour durin the war, on T.V a couple of weeks ago, there was an item about the recent death of a former japanese destroyer captain who went out of his way to rescue the entire crew of a british vessel( I forget the exact details but I'm sure it was an RN ship) and treat them well. His crew acted as true sailors as well. I wish I'dpaid more attention to it now.

BTW, the ship sthat was sunk at Ulithi atoll was the tanker Mississinewa (AO-59), with all 150 crew

 

[Shinpachi]

Hi HerrKaleut!

Thanks for your good reference.
Here is the story of Captain Kudo of Destroyer Ikazuchi
The Untold story of Captain Kudo

Hi Messy1!
I wonder if you are astonished to know our postwar fact that General MacArthur was/is respected by the
Japanese because he rescued Japan not only from the poverty but the communism.

 

[HerrKaleut]

Shinpachi san, my pleasure. I looked at the ref. you gave but they have withdrawn the vid.clips. The point that the overthinker makes re; the salute should be corrected. The palm outward salute is correct for the Royal Air Force, Army and Royal Marines. The Royal Navy salute however is palm inwards and, as we say, shortest way up-shortest way down.(The chop-out is an american-ism us gentile brits do not understand)
So the palm -in salute as used in the re-construction would have been correct. I tried to add this info. but for some reason I couldnt.

Regards.

 

[Messy1]

Hi HerrKaleut!

Thanks for your good reference.
Here is the story of Captain Kudo of Destroyer Ikazuchi
The Untold story of Captain Kudo

Hi Messy1!
I wonder if you are astonished to know our postwar fact that General MacArthur was/is respected by the
Japanese because he rescued Japan not only from the poverty but the communism.

I have read and heard that before Shinpachi. It is nice to know Gen. MacArthur is still respected and remembered in Japan. He must have done a great job in Japan after the war for him to be so highly thought of by your people.

 

[Shinpachi]

Hi,, HerrKaleut! I've found out the same videos on youtube.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWYz_AQAzbQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyKauVi4W3c

Thanks for nice lecture about the salute style, IJN was also adopting the same style of your navy.
A friend of my father-in-law's used to be a navy. He said that they took the shortest course for salute because the deck space was always limited.

I like this kind of talk
Thanks.

 

[Shinpachi]

Hi, Messy1!

I don't know how high Gen. MacArthur's reputation is in the United States but, in Japan, he was almost regarded as a God in place of our emperor at that time. He planted a true democracy with women's suffrage here, too. Without him, Japan would have been placed in political and economical chaos for many years.

We cannot forget him and his great achievement forever.

 

[Messy1]

He is held in high regards in the States as well, although I am sad to say many younger Americans seem not to know very much at all about our nation's, and the world's history, and how the events and people from the past have influenced the world today. Sad indeed.

 

[Shinpachi]

As he said "An old soldier never die but just fades away", history may also fade away generation by generation but our memory of Gen. MacArthur never fades away.

I'm glad I had a chance to talk about him.
Thanks.

Image: Gen. MacArthur's room in the building of Dai-ichi Life Insurance Corp where the former GHQ stayed.
Hi resolution