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The bombers on April 25 came in at 8km per their own records. In fact only 11 P-40's could make contact. Also in some of the 1943 raids the bomberswere lower by the time they bombed, or the time they left. The basic point you made by insisting on posting that same misleading info on two threads was, that the P-40's enjoyed numerical superiority the Spits didn't, which is simply not true. If you don't acknowledge you had bad info on that point, why should anyone follow you along to some other 'but what about this' type of point, where you also just throw up so more old sources linked from web, then it's up to somebody else to correct those or show how they aren't representative?You are neglecting the 8 or 9 P40s lost, against 1 Zero loss on Feb 19.
So the above is a first hand account of the April 25 intercept and the pilot makes it very clear that the bombers were not at 26000 ft.
What about the bombers? Wasn't shooting down the bombers the whole point of these intercepts?
The bombers on April 25 came in at 8km per their own records.
OK, so you don't know what were combat and non-combat losses, and don't even know what the total representes, from this 'cross check'. How does that really verify the specifics of loss causes on particular days in the units records? (see below if that first sentence comes on too strong, I am *not* criticizing the presentation of new info). We are in fact relying on those Spit unit records to count losses exactly by incident and classify their cause.My source (Lynch, Parnell, Odgers as well as otes taken from Department of defence aircraft status cards from the aircraft historical section of the war meorial) reveals a total of 30 aircraft lost March through to the end of May for the following sqns, 2, 18, 31, 54, 452 and 457. That time period is not the same as Wildcats, which is over a longer period. In that period for operations in the theatre, including offensive operations over enemy territory. I dont think the figures include non-combat losses, but then a ditching due to running out of fuel is classified as a combat loss.
No translation error, as I said the bombers could reduce altitude as they came in for runs, but the fact is only 11 P-40's intercepted. Your point was that P-40's enjoyed 'overwhelmingly numerical superiority' in thos raids and that's a seriously wrong statement. Whatever arguments about who made contact in particular cases (though crystal clear in April 25) case, the 1942 and 1943 interecpting forces enjoyed broadly comparable numerical odds, and it's bending things in the Spit direction to even say that.We have a very clear account from a USAAF pilot who states that the bombers were at 16000ft. The most likely explanation is a translation error and that the "8" in 8km should read "5" as in 5km, which is about 16000ft. I wonder how many other mistakes have been made?
Also, what about the bomber kills?
No translation error, as I said the bombers could reduce altitude as they came in for runs, but the fact is only 11 P-40's intercepted. Your point was that P-40's enjoyed 'overwhelmingly numerical superiority' in thos raids and that's a seriously wrong statement. Whatever arguments about who made contact in particular cases (though crystal clear in April 25) case, the 1942 and 1943 interecpting forces enjoyed broadly comparable numerical odds, and it's bending things in the Spit direction to even say that.
We might discuss bomber kills if you show yourself a serious person by admitting you were mistaken about the fighter numbers point you made *twice*. If OTOH you don't believe the info I gave on relative numbers, what's the point of giving other info you ask for?
Joe
I'm sorry but it is obvious that you made a mistake, and refuse to admit that your source is incorrect. My statement regrading 50 P40s intercepting was based upon information from reputable sources. Now you try to fudge things and state that the bombers reduced altitude, but the simple fact is that the interception was made at 16000ft. Why should we believe the rest of your source when it is wrong about such a fundamental part of the engagement?
Please state...
Well you're not *quite* claiming that wrong info is right anymore, that's something I guess, but still two major problems:My statement regrading 50 P40s intercepting was based upon information from reputable sources.
1. You've said this or something like it several times, but still never explained what other figures exist for the Japanese combat losses over Darwin besides the Allied claims and losses the Japanese reported (as I've given). The figures which have appeared in one-sided English language books are in all cases AFAIK simply what the Allies claimed. Japanese secondary sources have quoted what the Japanese claimed for Allied losses (79 enemy a/c plus 22 probable for 202nd AG in 1943 campaign), same same.Joe
1. Its just that your figures dont seem to synchronise with other (secondary) published figures. I was interested in your response, but it obviously hit a nerve I can see.
2. As far as not knowing the difference between a combat and a non-combat loss, what are you getting at? Sometimes losses can be referred to a operational and non-operational, perhaps its better to describe ditching as a n operational loss?
Well you're not *quite* claiming that wrong info is right anymore, that's something I guess, but still two major problems:
-whether or not 'reputable', old purely one sided works by authors like Hess are wrong about a lot of points. I have 'Pacific Sweep' and Hess says basically the same thing in that book. I read the book many years ago, and I accepted the spare statements in it, Hess covers most missions in a few sentences, as provisional facts in the absence of a more complete and detailed treatment. But I surely wouldn't use such a book now as 'reputable source' to challenge the results in a newer study which is describing the missions over several *pages* each from both sides*. I would have to call myself an ignoramus if I did that, that's all I'll say.
-moreover *you* not Hess, cherry picked one mistaken example into a general statement that the P-40's 'often had overwhelming numerical superiority'. Now you seem to want to imply you were only relying on the 'reputable' Hess (to make a generalization he never made), or just tap dance furiously away to any other aspect of the topic you possibly can.
*one reason Hess' implication that all 50 P-40's intercepted April 25 '42 is obviously wrong is that the Japanese records also don't say they were engaged by lots of P-40's that day.
Joe
we have reached the limit of intelligent debate on this issue, and are beginning to move into rough water from this point.
Joe
I am askingthe question as to why RAAF spitfire losses were so high.?
Morehead stated that he intercepted at 14-16000 ft. I can understand that a pilot can be a bit fuzzy about precise details, but his statements seem to corroborate a medium altitude intercept. Again, both sources can't be right.
I didn't "cherry pick" anything. I picked a date where the P40s claimed to be very successful and where the altitude and numbers were clearly stated. Other altitudes mentioned:
Molesworth:
April 04
10 p40s ( 4 airborne and 6 scrambled) intercept 6 bombers and similar number of fighters. it goes on to state that 2 G4M were shot down at "11000 ft." p28
This and the April 25 combat, are the only one that mention altitude and specific numbers.
Hess:
on page 17 there is also mention of another raid at 23000 ft, but no numbers given.
on page 19 records a combat on June 16th, where 36 P40 intercepted 27 bombers and 15 zeros. A pilot
recounts that he led his flight to 29000ft to get above the bombers which were at 23000ft.
on page 22, July 30, bombers at 3000ft and zeros at 5000ft
page 24, Aug 23, states the bombers were at 25000ft, which is the highest altitude mentioned.
The Spitfire squadrons had lost 44 aircraft in their six months of operations
although only 17 of these losses had been directly due to enemy
action . By comparison enemy losses at the hands of the Spitfires had bee n
63 destroyed and another 13 probably destroyed . The Spitfire squadrons
had been below strength after a period of intense action in late June an d
early July, but replacements had come from the south during the month ,
and there were no further losses in action because the Japanese raid s
had ceased. Indeed, by the end of July, enemy activity in the air was
almost at a standstill
1. I don't think it's jumping in boots and all to add information if available, when people even now 65 years on, quote *anybody's* aerial claims in WWII as if facts without reference to the other side's accounts. If you do a comprehensive search you'll find it's by no means limited to Japanese losses. Consistent pattern: everyone once confronted with that truism, claims aren't reliable, says 'oh yeah I know that', but many would still clearly prefer to believe 'their guys' claims were only moderately overstated, and have a degree of personal irritation when others insist it's not the case in a particular situation, from all evidence at least.Hi Joe
1. Every time a discussion comes up about Japanese losses, you jump in, boots and all, to say just how wrong the allied claims are, and that Japanese losses are grossly overstated.
2. if Japanese losses are so low in every sample you care to talk about, is it not reasonable to assume that your research suggests that for the whole war, Japanese losses are being overstated. you have not been willing to go there, I suspect because it exposes your research to the obvious question "well, if losses are so low across the board, where did all the production and new pilots end up????' your reply to that is evasive, and dismissive, "oh it happened somewhere else" Okay, but if not in those sample engagements that you are willing to talk about, then where??? You refuse to go there, for reasons known to yourself.
3. Thats not what other researchers believe,
4. I give parrallel examples of more well known deceptions, not just secret records, and point out that the japanese have a fundamentally different attitude to losses and defeat, equating these outcomes with dishonour. .
As in my longer post recently and others before, high losses compared to what?Yes I'm curious too.
Joe, what's the crux of your opinion on the Pacific airwar comparing Commonwealth vs US results?
Were the P-40 Wildcat just better aircraft to fight the Japanese vs Spitfire Hurricane?
Or were the CW not as good as US? Inexperienced pilots? Poor training? Poor tactics?
Poor planning on choice of missions?
What was the reason for the disparity?
People should try to be serious, objective and grown up, that's the only thing I have a really strong opinion about here.