The Best Fw-190 Variant...? (3 Viewers)

[Anonymous]

Oil was in short supply in terms of supporting major ground offensives, but there was pleanty for conducting defensive air operations. The Luftwaffe' didn't suffer from such shortages until the Fall of 1944.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well, if you look at German fighter production from Nov. 1943 to Apr. 1944, there should have been well over 10,000 new fighter planes available. If the Luftwaffe' was not suffering heavy losses of planes and pilots during this period - where were they on D-Day?

Please tell me you dont actually believe that those 10000 were all in Normandy? Lets see there was the Eastern Front, the Med, and the air defence of Germany.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course not. But really, they were no where to be found on the W. front. The defense of Germany in late summer 1944 consisted of something like 700 fighters. Of those 10,000, you'd expect at least a few thousand to have been allocated to the W. front. Had the Germans been able to put up 3000 fighters to intercept the US bomber formations, they'd have wiped out those formations.

The only logical explanation here is that the Luftwaffe' did not have the planes or pilots available to mount such interceptions, or to operate against the allies in Normandy during D-day. The only logical explanation for that would be losses.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There were two complete Jagd Geschwader in the vicinity of Normandy on D-Day and most of the pilots were on leave back in Germany. A 3rd JG (I believe it was JG II/3 was on its way to Normandy on June 6, 1944 but did not arrive on time and when it did arrive there airfield had been destroyed and they could not land there.

 

[Anonymous]

There were two complete Jagd Geschwader in the vicinity of Normandy on D-Day and most of the pilots were on leave back in Germany. A 3rd JG (I believe it was JG II/3 was on its way to Normandy on June 6, 1944 but did not arrive on time and when it did arrive there airfield had been destroyed and they could not land there.

And how many planes is in a JG?

 

[KraziKanuK]

And how many planes is in a JG?

JG = 3 or 4 Gruppen (wing)
1 Gruppen = 3 or 4 staffel (squadron)
1 staffel = 12 a/c

each stab = 4 a/c (JG stab and each Gruppen stab)

 

[Anonymous]

Okay, I have some figures:

West
Jan-May 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1491, losses = 5694
Jun-Oct 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1135, losses = 6412

Those are pretty nasty loss rates!

=S=

Lunatic

 

[lesofprimus]

Are those combat losses or operational losses???????

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

oh my god you're back!!

where you been les?? you here to stay?? and more to the point did you miss me??

 

[KraziKanuK]

Okay, I have some figures:

West
Jan-May 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1491, losses = 5694
Jun-Oct 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1135, losses = 6412

Those are pretty nasty loss rates!

=S=

Lunatic

And American losses for 1944 was 15,675 a/c vs Germany.

 

[Anonymous]

Are those combat losses or operational losses???????

All losses.

 

[Anonymous]

Okay, I have some figures:

West
Jan-May 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1491, losses = 5694
Jun-Oct 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1135, losses = 6412

Those are pretty nasty loss rates!

=S=

Lunatic

And American losses for 1944 was 15,675 a/c vs Germany.

Umm... I only included "day fighter" losses. For all aircraft types, it rises to 10,745 in the Jan-May period, and 11182 from June to Oct., a total of almost 22,000 planes, not counting losses Nov. and Dec.

And besides, offense is harder than defense. And the USA knew it would win a war of attrition. It counted on it.

 

[Soren]

And besides, offense is harder than defense.

RG,

That is the oldest excuse in the book !

In aerial warfare the typical offense and defence rules all goes out the window, and especially in the case at the W-front ! In aerial warfare everyone is attacking each other, and its the guys with the most fuel and supply's who has the upper hand.

The Allies had all the advantages in 44-45, as their supply's were more than sufficient, while the Germans had severe fuel shortages wich severely limited their fighting capability. Plus the fact that the German industry was unmercyfully bombed day and night, and to top it off the Russians were coming in unstoppable masses from the east, while from the south more Allies were on the way.

Give the Germans full fuel supply in 44-45, and the Allies would have gotten a severe beating, and thats even if they reached their goal or not.

Take the Ardenne offensive for example... In the initial stages where there was still some fuel to go on, the German beat the living daylight out of the Allies. But the succes soon stopped as fuel ran out and many viechles had to be abandoned, as 90% of all the AFV's and supply's stood still.

Fuel is the life-line of an army, and without it, it cannot function.

Btw RG, already by mid 43 the Germans were in fuel shortage, and this had already been forseen by the German high command in early 42. This is why the conquest of the Caucasus region was so important for the Germans.

 

[Anonymous]

The Luftwaffe' didn't start suffering from significant fuel shortages until the Fall of 1944 - and this occured because they failed to protect Germany's fuel resources.

You've got to be kidding me as far as your argument about offense and defense being equal. For offense in this case, the USA had to to load up bombers plus escort fighters and send them 500-800 miles into enemy territory and back. The defender, Germany, had only to send their fighters up to shoot down the bombers. The bomber fleet alone was a huge vulnerability the Germans did not face (in this period).

On top of that, the Luftwaffe' had the support of ground radar and ground spotters to locate the US formations and direct them to them. And, when a Luftwaffe' plane was hit by an allied fighter or bomber it had a much better chance of successfully returning to base than did its counterpart. And finally, the Luftwaffe' was not facing flak/AA except for occassional friendly fire incidents.

Offense is harder than Defense, it's obvious.

As for your argument about the Battle of the Bulge, it was not from a shortage of fuel that the Germans failed to reach their objective, it was from an inability to get that fuel to the Panzers. This is always the issue with Blitzkrieg, even today. Supply lines get stretched thin and become increasingly vulnerable and logistics become increasingly difficult. The Germans could only load so much fuel on their Panzer's and support vehicles, when that ran out they were finished. And also the weather broke so any attempts to ferry fuel forward were hopeless.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[mosquitoman]

Exactly, that's why the Luftwaffe failed against Britain in 1940

 

[KraziKanuK]

Soren,

Luni is right. offence requires at least a minimum 3:1 advantage over the enemy.

Luni,

The Germans did not have enough fuel to re-supply their units in the Bulge. They were relying on capturing Allied fuel to keep the offence going.

I only posted the US losses to put the German losses in perspective. Do you know what the British losses were?

 

[Soren]

I was talking "WHILE IN THE AIR", the typical offense and defence rules go right out thw window ! And the guy's with the most fuel, supplies and numbers of a/c's, definitely has the upper hand.

One should bear in mind how many LW aircraft actually were shot to peaces while helpless on the ground because of fuel shortage !

Few allied aircraft were shot down on the ground or while landing or taking off, however this was common for the Germans.

 

[Anonymous]

Luni,

The Germans did not have enough fuel to re-supply their units in the Bulge. They were relying on capturing Allied fuel to keep the offence going.

I only posted the US losses to put the German losses in perspective. Do you know what the British losses were?

The Germans carried as much fuel as they could with their offensive force. If they could have carried more, they would have. They lacked the capacity to support a supply chain that could provide them with fuel, and so their plan was to try to grab the fuel depot. To get one gallon of fuel to the combatants in an ongoing offensive typically costs 3 or more gallons - that's what the German's didn't have.

No I don't know what British losses between Jan and Oct 1944 were, do you have a figure?

 

[Erich]

for Normandie. JG 2 and JG 26 were the only wings present on D-day. then came JG 1, JG 3, I./JG 5, I. and II./JG 11, III. and IV./JG 27, II./JG 53 and III./JG 54 on the 7th of June 44.........3-4 other gruppen came later in June to August of 44 for defence duties until pulled back into Germany

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Okay, I have some figures:

West
Jan-May 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1491, losses = 5694
Jun-Oct 1944 - day fighters: strength = 1135, losses = 6412

Those are pretty nasty loss rates!

=S=

Lunatic

Please dont tell me you are trying to say that those losses were in Normandy. I am sorry but there were only 2 JG's in Normandy at the time. The West is a hell of a lot more then just northern France! Erich even confirmed that there were only 2 JG's in Normandy on D-Day the rest were still in Germany until they were brought foward.