Thats a lot of downed aircraft.
The Best Fw-190 Variant...?
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Erich
the old Sage
KK it must be my Opa eyes but I do not fully understand your tables. Are you stating that in some figures for daylights ops only very few US heavies ? shot down by fighters, and this is from US tabletures ?
RG yes it is confimred through German sources 1805 Doras produced but as I saiad not know what by werk nummer or even how many issued to front line Schule or Operational Geschwader. In another posting I have shown as to what operative units the Dora 9 and 11 were given to and what was on hand but I did not state as I do not know just how many in numbers......in fact no one knows as it is never explained nor stated. In ragerdance to one particualr heavily engaged unit IV./JG 26 ex III./JG 54 the first unit that accepted the type. Neither unit in their written histories tell just how many a/c came on board. All we have is a sketch of the over all loses by diary.
I also can give the number via German sources from 20 February to March1944's end of claims and losses by total numbers but you must give me a couple of weeks as there are other priorities like work..............puke !
RG yes it is confimred through German sources 1805 Doras produced but as I saiad not know what by werk nummer or even how many issued to front line Schule or Operational Geschwader. In another posting I have shown as to what operative units the Dora 9 and 11 were given to and what was on hand but I did not state as I do not know just how many in numbers......in fact no one knows as it is never explained nor stated. In ragerdance to one particualr heavily engaged unit IV./JG 26 ex III./JG 54 the first unit that accepted the type. Neither unit in their written histories tell just how many a/c came on board. All we have is a sketch of the over all loses by diary.
I also can give the number via German sources from 20 February to March1944's end of claims and losses by total numbers but you must give me a couple of weeks as there are other priorities like work..............puke !
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Erich,
Table 159, ETO losses Feb 1944
heavy bombers - 271
by a/c - 170 (62.7%)
by AAA - 81 (29.9%)
by other - 20 (7.4%)
Table 159, ETO losses Mar 1944
heavy bombers - 345
by a/c - 178 (51.6%)
by AAA - 112 (32.5%)
by other - 55 (15.9%)
Does the by help?
Yes, these are USAAF numbers from Army Air Forces Statistical Digest.
Table 159, ETO losses Feb 1944
heavy bombers - 271
by a/c - 170 (62.7%)
by AAA - 81 (29.9%)
by other - 20 (7.4%)
Table 159, ETO losses Mar 1944
heavy bombers - 345
by a/c - 178 (51.6%)
by AAA - 112 (32.5%)
by other - 55 (15.9%)
Does the by help?
Yes, these are USAAF numbers from Army Air Forces Statistical Digest.
Erich
the old Sage
har har the info is right in front of me as I just pulled it up......and I have anothe 1/2 hr before I blast off into space....
giddy with excitement
Veluste im Einsatz
20 Feb.
44 kia 74 a/c lost
21 Feb.
24 kia 30 a/c lost
22 Feb.
25 kia 53 a/c lost
24 Feb.
33 kia 45 a/c lost
25 Feb.
19 kia 48 a/c lost //// Big week ends
____________________________________________________
For all missions flown in 1944 and this includes non combat ops and inclusion of accidnets at base, schule, etc........
Verluste der Tagjagdverbände März 1944, nur Reichsverteidigung, West und Süd
299 kia
5 captured
143 wounded
10 missing
583 aircraft shot down and with 60-100% loss
284 a/c with minor damage
21 aircarft lost on base due to accidents as total write offs.
34 aircraft at base with minor damage.
a/c and personell losses from the holdings of RL 2 listings at Freiburg, Verlustlisten
__________________________________________________________
if my math is correct.............
that is: 444 crewmen killed
that is: 833 Luftwaffe aircraft shot down in combat as complete loss.
1000 ? I suppose it is close .....according to what US sources are investigated and quoted the last 30 odd years.
thoughts ?
giddy with excitement
Veluste im Einsatz
20 Feb.
44 kia 74 a/c lost
21 Feb.
24 kia 30 a/c lost
22 Feb.
25 kia 53 a/c lost
24 Feb.
33 kia 45 a/c lost
25 Feb.
19 kia 48 a/c lost //// Big week ends
____________________________________________________
For all missions flown in 1944 and this includes non combat ops and inclusion of accidnets at base, schule, etc........
Verluste der Tagjagdverbände März 1944, nur Reichsverteidigung, West und Süd
299 kia
5 captured
143 wounded
10 missing
583 aircraft shot down and with 60-100% loss
284 a/c with minor damage
21 aircarft lost on base due to accidents as total write offs.
34 aircraft at base with minor damage.
a/c and personell losses from the holdings of RL 2 listings at Freiburg, Verlustlisten
__________________________________________________________
if my math is correct.............
that is: 444 crewmen killed
that is: 833 Luftwaffe aircraft shot down in combat as complete loss.
1000 ? I suppose it is close .....according to what US sources are investigated and quoted the last 30 odd years.
thoughts ?
evangilder
"Shooter"
That's still a 17% difference. I suppose you could say they rounded, but I have a feeling they rounded kills up and losses down.
Erich
the old Sage
KK yes I can put it into my foggy mind. Will tell you that it should read more by fighters than flak as a percentage.
I have the claims of heavy bombers by individual German Luftwaffe gruppen but this will take time to gather and produce, this during the February dates of "Big Week". March too.................
I have the claims of heavy bombers by individual German Luftwaffe gruppen but this will take time to gather and produce, this during the February dates of "Big Week". March too.................
Erich
the old Sage
Evan yes for propaganda reasons I am sure to boost the ever failing moral during early 44.
Here is an interesting cases for October 1943
the infamous Münster mission.
on 10 October 1943 8th AF bombers and fighters claimed a total of 202 Luftwaffe fighters.
in reality the Luftwaffe lost a total of 27 a/c
on 14 October 1943 for Schweinfurt mission the 8th AF bombers and fighters claimed a total of 200 Luftwaffe fighters.
in reality the Luftwaffe lost a total of 38 a/c
Here is an interesting cases for October 1943
the infamous Münster mission.
on 10 October 1943 8th AF bombers and fighters claimed a total of 202 Luftwaffe fighters.
in reality the Luftwaffe lost a total of 27 a/c
on 14 October 1943 for Schweinfurt mission the 8th AF bombers and fighters claimed a total of 200 Luftwaffe fighters.
in reality the Luftwaffe lost a total of 38 a/c
evangilder
"Shooter"
Overclaims were very common. That is why I asked for clarification from RG if that number was claimed, or confirmed. But to call your examples overclaims is kind of underkill. Those are way overinflated!
A
Anonymous
Guest
evangilder said:
Admittely the source, "Target Berlin", is less than spectacular. That is why I'm trying to verify or disprove these figures.
According to Gunther Rall (interviewed) after this period the Luftwaffe' had only about 700 fighters to defend W. Europe.
Why would you think those figures are unreasonable? The Luftwaffe' got pounded in the Spring of 1944 and it was never able to recover.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Because claims are always more than what is confirmed after the fact.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Erich said:
RG_Lunatic said:
Which implies that the Luftwaffe' had about 2300 planes and pilots on the W. Front at the start of big week. If they lost 444 in the first 5 days, 1000 is not unreasonable by the end of March.
Or are you saying that is the sum of losses in 1944? If that is true, then where was the 10,000 plane strong Luftwaffe'?
=S=
Lunatic
A
Anonymous
Guest
KraziKanuK said:
Actually I think there were a few more airframes produced, but fewer delivered with engines. If you go through this site:
http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/
It appears that over 1500, perhaps as many as about 2400, Me262 airframes were constructed. However, going through the database of individual aircraft records yeilds only about 300 that may have seen combat.
=S=
Lunatic
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
Those numbers (Me262) are for fully finished a/c delivered from the factories.
I don't know where you got the 300 number from but almost 800 were with JV 44, JG 7, KG51 and KG(J)54.
I don't know where you got the 300 number from but almost 800 were with JV 44, JG 7, KG51 and KG(J)54.
Erich
the old Sage
you forget the EJG 2 and 3 gruppen and the home defence factory units.
RG I am not quite sure where you are going. I quoted you the losses sustained by the twin engine and single engine fighter gruppen for Big week that was from 20-25 of FEbruary, no longer than that and also for the whole month of March 44.
If you are wanting comp[lete loss and claims figures for all of 1944 I could ablige but it is going to cost you.........
Your 2500 or so figure just may include night fighters as they were used in the winter of 43-March of 44 then withdrawn back to the night skies.
To be frank nothing will ever agree, overclaiming was done on both sides, the Allies due to bolstering the bomber crews ego's gave multiple kills to gunners of the smae German a/c downed. This is a proven fact.
so much German material is still lost and I have said on more than one occassion that claims by Luftwaffe pilots were not officially granted in the fall of 44 till wars end and the only way to even come close is to research through the GErman GEschwader histories but not all of them are covered in print and if they are some are so brief we do not have dates, hours or even what they shot down. The ZG units for 43 through 44 are not even covered except just briefly in mention of an important air battle. III./ZG 26 ops in very brief details are covered from Freiburg as is almost not worht mentioning, same goes for the day ops of twin engine fighter units, they just are not there....
To be perfectly honest I wouldn't believe anything that Günther RAll quotes now as he is up there in years and his mind has been warped. He is good for his memoires still on his own personal scored on the Ost front but when I interviewed him for his II./JG 11 skills and especially his Kommodore activites for JG 300 he hadn't a clue
RG I am not quite sure where you are going. I quoted you the losses sustained by the twin engine and single engine fighter gruppen for Big week that was from 20-25 of FEbruary, no longer than that and also for the whole month of March 44.
If you are wanting comp[lete loss and claims figures for all of 1944 I could ablige but it is going to cost you.........
Your 2500 or so figure just may include night fighters as they were used in the winter of 43-March of 44 then withdrawn back to the night skies.
To be frank nothing will ever agree, overclaiming was done on both sides, the Allies due to bolstering the bomber crews ego's gave multiple kills to gunners of the smae German a/c downed. This is a proven fact.
so much German material is still lost and I have said on more than one occassion that claims by Luftwaffe pilots were not officially granted in the fall of 44 till wars end and the only way to even come close is to research through the GErman GEschwader histories but not all of them are covered in print and if they are some are so brief we do not have dates, hours or even what they shot down. The ZG units for 43 through 44 are not even covered except just briefly in mention of an important air battle. III./ZG 26 ops in very brief details are covered from Freiburg as is almost not worht mentioning, same goes for the day ops of twin engine fighter units, they just are not there....
To be perfectly honest I wouldn't believe anything that Günther RAll quotes now as he is up there in years and his mind has been warped. He is good for his memoires still on his own personal scored on the Ost front but when I interviewed him for his II./JG 11 skills and especially his Kommodore activites for JG 300 he hadn't a clue
Erich
the old Sage
RG :
re-read my post. they did not lose 444 crewmen in 5 days. Only 5 days of battle in Big week with a loss of 145.
299 for all of March KIA
re-read my post. they did not lose 444 crewmen in 5 days. Only 5 days of battle in Big week with a loss of 145.
299 for all of March KIA
As Erich very rightly put it, the so called "Big Week" is full of crap.
RG: how much more evidence will you think you´d be requiring to accept the USA and Britain had a propaganda as prolific as that of the soviets?
It is god dam useless to repeat the German losses were very high on several battles of 1944, but those of the allies were as terrible as one can think.
Actually losses of pilots and airmen for the USAAF and RAF combined were HIGHER than those the German jagdgruppen were sustaining in 1944, since a good chunk of the enemy planes destroyed were heavy bombers with lots of guys inside of them. In the meantime, the Luftwaffe was losing mainly single engine fighters and some twin engined ones.
RG: the guys on the side you belong have spent more than half a century trying to find an alleged so called "definitive-decisive" massive battle when the Luftwaffe got finally "broken" by the "gallant, heroic, superbly trained gentle chivalrous boys" of the USAAF flying their "infinitely superior planes".
I am pleased to inform you such a "decisive" moment is nowhere to be found, for there is none.
The Luftwaffe got defeated slowly; it was a gradual process of accumulated losses and substantial numerical superiority of the enemy that defeated the Luftwaffe.
The Luftwaffe got its back broken in early 1944? Hogwash.
Read further on the accounts of units such as JG 300, JG 301 just to name a couple -units which operated throughout 1944 with several mixed succeses-. And do not forget to spy even further on the job (mid/late 1944) of the Sturmböck kids of JG 3, JG 4 and JG 300 who sent a high number of enemy heavy bombers to the ground.
RG: how much more evidence will you think you´d be requiring to accept the USA and Britain had a propaganda as prolific as that of the soviets?
It is god dam useless to repeat the German losses were very high on several battles of 1944, but those of the allies were as terrible as one can think.
Actually losses of pilots and airmen for the USAAF and RAF combined were HIGHER than those the German jagdgruppen were sustaining in 1944, since a good chunk of the enemy planes destroyed were heavy bombers with lots of guys inside of them. In the meantime, the Luftwaffe was losing mainly single engine fighters and some twin engined ones.
RG: the guys on the side you belong have spent more than half a century trying to find an alleged so called "definitive-decisive" massive battle when the Luftwaffe got finally "broken" by the "gallant, heroic, superbly trained gentle chivalrous boys" of the USAAF flying their "infinitely superior planes".
I am pleased to inform you such a "decisive" moment is nowhere to be found, for there is none.
The Luftwaffe got defeated slowly; it was a gradual process of accumulated losses and substantial numerical superiority of the enemy that defeated the Luftwaffe.
The Luftwaffe got its back broken in early 1944? Hogwash.
Read further on the accounts of units such as JG 300, JG 301 just to name a couple -units which operated throughout 1944 with several mixed succeses-. And do not forget to spy even further on the job (mid/late 1944) of the Sturmböck kids of JG 3, JG 4 and JG 300 who sent a high number of enemy heavy bombers to the ground.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Udet, I agree that there was no defining moment or battle that broke the Luftwaffe. It was a war of attrition and the losses were heavy on both sides. The Luftwaffe put up one hell of a fight to the end and it is clear from the numbers shown that the allies did not have "superior" airplanes. They were actually fairly evenly matched.
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
RG wanted the name of the source for the number of Doras produced >> Rodieke's "Focke Wulf Jagdflugzueg".
If he is real quick,
If he is real quick,
Erich
the old Sage
this is the ultimate book on the Fw 190, Dora and Ta 152 except for J.Y. Lorants OOP title on the a/c, and by the way it will be republished into English from the French in time.....
v/r E ♪
v/r E ♪
A
Anonymous
Guest
KraziKanuK said:
That only about 300 Me262's of all flavors saw combat operations in WWII is a well established number. Something around 2300 werknumbers were allocated, most of which involved an airframe being at least partially constructed. About 1500 airframes were completed, to varying degrees, many missing critical components which were to be delivered in the field (such as engines). Of these 1500, I don't know exactly how many ever saw engines, but a large number of those that did suffered engine failures prior to or upon their first flight.
If you go through the werknumber database I gave the link for, you can see the details on all 262's which were actually delivered, and its fate. Unfortunately, it does not always indicate if the plane flew combat or not. But, it is apparent that the units were normally delivered to the JG's and they conducted the first flight - many of them indicate loss due to engine failure on test flight.
=S=
Lunatic
