The Best Fw-190 Variant...?

[evangilder]

There is a huge difference between 1000 planes in 1 week and 1000 planes in 5 weeks. Are those 1000 planes claimed, or 1000 confirmed with Luftwaffe records? I am not trying to nitpick, but get a clear picture, because claims versus actual kills were often quite different.

 

[Erich]

Big Week one of the biggest slaughters of US heavy bombers during February 1944. Historical references have tried to cover this up for 60 years and there is no true book on this interesting of subjects.

According to official Freiburg BA/MA losses reports of the JG's and ZG's during February 20-25th aka Big Week there were :

145 German crew KIA
250 German a/c shot down with 60-100 % loss

believe the lies if you will, another indication to me that American researchers have not done their homework and that US overclaiming was much more than anyone has ever thought possilbe...........

v/r E ~

 

[evangilder]

That is why I asked if they were claimed or verified. I know claims were very often just that, claims. I understand that some people get caught up in patriotic fervor, but in the interest of real history, the numbers should be accurate. Otherwise it paints an unrealistic picture.

 

[Erich]

you may find this of interest, during Big week that the US 8th AF alone claimed 376 German a/c, not counting what the US 15th AF claimed for the week.

One of the largest combined losses was over 70 US a/c on the 25th of February when the US 8th and 15th AF were assaulted in numbers of single and twin engines, many wrong ID's of Ju 88's carrying and firing rockets as well as Heinekl 111's.

for now.........

 

[evangilder]

Wow! Is that 70 aircraft of all types, or just the heavies?

 

[Erich]

all types and I do not have all totals of 15th AF heavies or fighters confirmed. Big week lasted from 20-25th of February and not another 5 weeks as the Berlin raids of the first week of March 44 are seperate and were to be the cuase in Allied eyes the demise of the Berlin factory and moral of the German populace but it did not work. In any case it probably built up the defiance heven more of the Berliners as more single 105mm and 88mm's were brought to the city ring on rail cars for future defence and the more single engine fightes were brought to the area of Jüterbog and three other airfields in defence both day and night of Berlin in 44-45.

I've studied this part of the air war both day/night for over 25 years and their is so much confusion , actually mis-information that no-one of English speaking skills has taken the time to correct losses and claims of the Allies during the heavy attacks during the winter-s[pring of 44.
One scna paperback book on big week with a ton of errors and the famous Berlin March 6 raid by Ethell which has been reprinted a half dozen times, still the authority on the raid, but what about the other days of death ? There is plenty of German archival docs available if someone would take the time for serious study the comparisions from boths sides would be quite revealing, and this is one of the prime reasons I do not loiter on the many so-called expert web-sites full of old and inaccurate findings.

This was a reason why we started up our web-site on the summer-fall battles of 1944 over the Reich. Funny how many US veterans eyes were opened up when we did correspondance via phone, first person and letter interviews and related the German documentation to them. they had no idea what was "on the other side".

Erich ♪

 

[Soren]

Soren, would you care to provide that AFDU report? Or do you expect me to hunt it down too?

Sorry but this one isnt available on the Internet (As far as a know at least)

 

[evangilder]

I applaud your efforts to correct the information that is out there.

 

[Erich]

side notation............is everyone aware that nearly 70 US 8th AF a/c were downed by single and twin engine Luftwaffe a/c on 11 January 1944. This is documented too and actually in a new book by a Dutch author through Hikoki publications. I have been researching this air-battle with another Dutch friend for over 8 years

 

[Erich]

7-7-44

Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben which is covered in brief detail on our web-site. 59 US heavies shot dwon from the 8th and 15 US AF which crossed over one another's bomb route by accident, something not found in US written sources. The culprit, over 3/4r's shot down by SturmFw's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 300, the remainder by Me 410B's

 

[Anonymous]

The 1000 aircraft figure relates to Big Week and the following daylight air campaign until April 1, 1944. Also, it includes aircraft destroyed on the ground.

Erich, do you have loss figures for both sides? It would be interesting to know the total USAAF (fighters and bombers) and Luftwaffe losses for this period (Feb 20 - Apr 1). It would also be interesting to know how many USAAF aircraft were lost to fighters and how many to flak.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

I just heard a different figure, which claims the luftwaffe' lost 1/3rd of its fighter aircraft and 1/5th of its pilots during "Big Week".

Erich, are you saying these figures are incorrect?

 

[Erich]

RG as I said in those 5 days my figures are from "official German Documental sources via Freiburg and Aachen, Berlin. Including inidvidual Geschwader operational histories.

If you consider what you have given there would have been absolutely no-one to put up any counter to any P-47's, P-38's and P-51's as well as fighting the Heavies. All new recruits would of either been at Schule or shot down in combat.............the Schwere Flak would of been the only thing during March and April and half of May, and we know that is quite untrue

by the way slightly getting back to the Dora production figs, there 1805 produced but it is not truley known how many went to operational units and schule

E ~

 

[Anonymous]

And that was largely the case. In 64 combat sorties during WWII, Chuck Yeager only saw German aircraft in flight on 5 of his sorties. Such claims of not being able to find German fighters in the air are common from early Summer 1944 till the end of the war.

The figures quoted were:

1/3rd of Luftwaffe' aircraft and 1/5th of the pilots were lost during Big Week. By the end of March, 1944, the Luftwaffe' had lost over 1000 pilots including 28 Experten.

I'm looking for good info on actual losses, so I can confirm or disprove the figures listed above, but so far, I've not found too much.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

As for those Dora production figures, can you qualify the defintion of "production"? As we have discussed before, werknumber allocation is a very poor method for determining actual German production. So are factory accountings. Deliveries, acceptances, and of course deployments, in that order, are the much preferred data.

Pilot accounts don't seem to support the idea of anywhere near even 1000 Dora's having been in operation, let alone almost 2000. If there really were that many, where were they?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

Soren, would you care to provide that AFDU report? Or do you expect me to hunt it down too?

Sorry but this one isnt available on the Internet (As far as a know at least)

Can you give me the name, number, and date of the report? And the author if that info is available?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[evangilder]

The figures quoted were:

1/3rd of Luftwaffe' aircraft and 1/5th of the pilots were lost during Big Week. By the end of March, 1944, the Luftwaffe' had lost over 1000 pilots including 28 Experten.

Where were those figures quoted? Losing 1,000 pilots? Typically, losing 1,000 pilots means that more airplanes were lost than that as some of the pilots survive. Is it 1,000 pilots, or planes? Those number seem inflated if it is aircraft, even moreso if it is pilot figures.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

As for those Dora production figures, can you qualify the defintion of "production"? As we have discussed before, werknumber allocation is a very poor method for determining actual German production. So are factory accountings. Deliveries, acceptances, and of course deployments, in that order, are the much preferred data.

Pilot accounts don't seem to support the idea of anywhere near even 1000 Dora's having been in operation, let alone almost 2000. If there really were that many, where were they?

=S=

Lunatic

If you had read what he posted you would have seen that he said of the number of Dora's built it is unknown how many actually made into line units or to the schools. But I myself also have never heard of anymore then 700 being built also, so I do not know either.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And that was largely the case. In 64 combat sorties during WWII, Chuck Yeager only saw German aircraft in flight on 5 of his sorties. Such claims of not being able to find German fighters in the air are common from early Summer 1944 till the end of the war.

The figures quoted were:

1/3rd of Luftwaffe' aircraft and 1/5th of the pilots were lost during Big Week. By the end of March, 1944, the Luftwaffe' had lost over 1000 pilots including 28 Experten.

I'm looking for good info on actual losses, so I can confirm or disprove the figures listed above, but so far, I've not found too much.

=S=

Lunatic

That was mostly do to the fact that the factories that built the fighters were put out of action for several months because of The Big Week.

Big Week was the name given later to the coordinated six-day air offensive (ARGUMENT) launched in February 1944 by RAF Bomber Command and the US Strategic Air Forces in Europe (USSTAF) as part of the Combined Bomber Offensive.

USSTAF had been formed under General Spaatz on 1 January 1944. It comprised the Eighth and Ninth US Army Air Forces, based in the UK, and the Fifteenth USAAF which was based in Italy. The previous year Eighth USAAF had suffered heavy losses during raids on Schweinfurt and elsewhere. Consequently, US daylight raids deep into Germany had been suspended until long-range fighters to escort the bombers had been delivered, and good weather made the raids viable.



When both these conditions were met, starting on 20 February 1944, more than 3,800 USSTAF bombers and 2,351 from RAF Bomber Command dropped between them nearly 20,000 tons of bombs on German fighter factories and associated industries, the British at night, the Americans during the day. American losses amounted to 254 aircraft, including 28 fighters, while RAF Bomber Command lost 157. These were heavy losses- Eighth USAAF had a rate of attrition for February which amounted to almost 20%-but Big Week put German fighter production back two months. Its purpose had also been to begin the attrition of German fighter pilots to undermine the Luftwaffe's continuing will to resist. In this Big Week was successful as a precursor to the escorted raids that followed it (see Graphs 1 and 2). From that time the daylight bombing campaign was only partially countered and during the Normandy landings in June 1944 (OVERLORD) only a handful of German aircraft were immediately available to oppose them.
http://www.valourandhorror.com/BC/Backg/Big_week.htm

 

[KraziKanuK]

Me262 production - 1433 produced, 936 delivered. (611 damaged or lost due to Allied causes > 114 repaired)

This was done under American supervision. Do you dispute these numbers RG?

.............

from http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_index_table.html

Table 159, ETO losses Feb 1944

heavy bombers - 271

a/c - 170
AAA - 81
other - 20

lt/med bombers - 19

a/c - 4
AAA - 14
other - 1

fighters - 103

a/c - 69
AAA - 13
other - 21

Table 167, e/a claimed destroyed ETO

Feb 1944 - 741

Table 159, ETO losses Mar 1944

heavy bombers - 345

a/c - 178
AAA - 112
other - 55

lt/med bombers - 15

a/c - 2
AAA - 94
other - 4

fighters - 191

a/c - 54
AAA - 46
other - 91

Table 167, e/a claimed destroyed ETO

Mar 1944 - 910