The Best Fw-190 Variant...?

[Anonymous]

No, those losses were for the entire "West", which includes all areas of conflict with the W. Allies.

On the "Western Front" (as opposed to defense of Germany or the MTO) the figures are:

Jan-May 1944 -
day fighters: strength = 259, losses = 1628
all aircraft: strength = 1240, losses = 3435

Jun-Oct 1944 -
day fighters: strength = 581, losses = 2714
all aircraft: strength = 1348, losses = 4696

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That sounds better then 15000 for the western front!

 

[Erich]

the western front was the time before 1943 and then included Normandie only and then the Ardenne. Trying to simplify western losses-Reich defence against the Western Allies is almost impossible as in the late summer of 1943 onward till wars end the defence of the Reich or Reichsverteidigung came into play where all a/c units were involved in different roles....

E ♪

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You also have to take into account that 1943 and onward the Luftwaffe was increasingly more and more being attacked over German held territory and not on the offensive over England or elsewere.

 

[CharlesBronson]

Aditional information:

JG-26 claims on 6 june of 1944, this JG was mostly equipped with FW-190 A-8

Losses.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Only two of those were actually over the beaches. Priller was one of the pilots who flew on the sorties but I am not sure who the other was.

 

[CharlesBronson]

It was Wodarczyk.


The pair took off into the gray skies at 0800. Priller's only orders to Wodarczyk were to stick close. They headed west at low altitude, spotting Spitfires above them as far east as Abbeville. Near Le Havre the duo climbed into the solid cloud bank. When they emerged, the ships of the largest assault landing in history were spread before their eyes. After a shouted "Good luck!" to Wodarczyk, Priller dove for the beach at 650 kph (400 mph). The British soldiers on Sword, the easternmost of the five landing beaches, jumped for cover as the two fighters roared overhead at fifty feet, their machine guns and cannon clattering. The fleet's antiaircraft guns opened fire with every gun that could track them, but the Focke-Wulfs flew through the barrage unscathed. After traversing the beach, the two pilots climbed for the clouds, honor satisfied. Their D-Day mission, the most famous in the history of the Geschwader thanks to Cornelius Ryan's book The Longest Day and the resulting movie, was over.

The two Focke-Wulfs landed on Creil, and Priller went to see Major Bühligen, the Kommodore of the Richthofen Geschwader. Bühligen had no more fighters than did Priller. Only one of his Gruppen was immediately available; another was en route from Brittany, and the third was in Germany for rebuilding, and had not yet been released to return to France. After several telephone calls to 5th Jagddivision headquarters, Priller got a decision on relocating his Geschwader. The Second Gruppe could continue north to Guyancourt, near Paris. The First and Third Gruppen could stay at Creil and Cormeilles until the arrival of the rest of the JG 2 aircraft made things too crowded, and would then move south to bases in the Paris region. Priller made arrangements for Bühligen's radiomen to contact his four road convoys, and returned to the business of fighting the Allies.

Although Priller and Wodarczyk may have been the first German pilots to fly over the beachhead, they were by no means the only ones to contact the enemy on this day. Bühligen himself scored the first victory for JG 2, a P-47 over the Orne Estuary, at 1157. I/JG 2 was active over Caen from noon, and III/JG 2 joined in after it arrived at Cormeilles from Brittany. For the day, the Richthofen Geschwader claimed three P-47s, five P-51s, and nine Typhoons, for the loss of nine Fw 190s. The P-51s included an entire flight of four 4th Fighter Group aircraft, bounced while strafing a convoy near Rouen.

 

[Anonymous]

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES {june 1944}
...

TUESDAY, 6 JUNE 1944
...

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The Eighth Air Force reaches its
top strength as the 493d Bombardment Group (Heavy) becomes operational,
making a total of 40 heavy bomber groups now operational.
Heavy bombers fly 4 missions in support of the Normandy invasion:
1. Mission 394: At first light, 659 of 882 B-17s and 418 of 543 B-24s hit
coastal targets in the area of the invasion beaches between Le Havre and
Cherbourg; overcast and inability of the bombers to locate (or absence of)
PFF leaders causes failure of some units to attack; 1 B-24 is lost, 1 B-24 is
damaged beyond repair and 14 B-17s and 1 B-24 are damaged; 12 airmen are KIA,
2 WIA and 13 MIA.
2. Mission 394: The second mission strikes at transportation chokepoints in
towns immediately around the assault area; total cloud cover causes 84 B-17s
and 259 B-24s dispatched to return with their bombs but 37 B-24s manage to
bomb secondary target of Argentan; 2 B-24s are lost and 1 B-17 is damaged;
no casualties.
3. Mission 395: The third mission is dispatched against the important
communications center of Caen; 58 of 73 B-24s bomb through overcast skies
without loss.
4. Mission 395: Transportation chokepoints in towns immediately S and E of
the assault area are the objectives of the fourth mission; 325 of 409 B-17s
and 125 of 300 B-24s hit targets including Vire, Saint-Lo, Coutances,
Falaise, Lisieux, Thury-Harcourt, Pont-l'Eveque, Argentan, and Conde-sur-
Noireau; 1 B-24 is lost, 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 11 B-24s and 5
B-17s are damaged; 10 airmen are KIA.
In all, 1,729 bombers drop 3,596 tons of bombs during D-Day.
The VIII Fighter Command has the threefold mission of escorting bombers,
attacking any movement toward the assault area, and protecting Allied
shipping. The fighters fly 1,880 sorties including fighter-bomber attacks
against 17 bridges, 10 marshalling yards, and a variety of other targets
including convoy, railroad cars, siding, rail and highway junctions, tunnel,
and a dam. Very little air opposition is encountered. The fighters claim
26-0-8 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 4-0-9 on the ground. Also destroyed
are 21 locomotives and 2 carloads of ammunition. Numerous targets are damaged
including locomotives, trucks, tank cars, armored vehicles, goods carriers,
barges, and tugboats. Targets attacked with unreported results include
warehouses, radar towers, barracks, troops, artillery, staff cars, 85 trains,
and a variety of other targets. 25 fighters are lost.
Mission 396: During the night, 12 B-17s drop leaflets in France and the
Low Countries.

TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 800+ A-20s and B-26s bomb coastal
defense batteries, rail and road junctions and bridges, and marshalling yards
in support of the invasion; 2,000+ fighters fly sweeps, escort for B-26s and
C-47s, ground support, and dive-bombing missions over W France. During the
preceding night and during the day over 1,400 C-47s, C-53's, and gliders
deliver glider troops and paratroops, including 3 full airborne divisions,
which are to secure beach exits to facilitate inland movement of seaborne
assault troops. A total of about 30 aircraft are lost.
http://www.altus.af.mil/history/combat/combatjun44.htm

For the number of sorties flown losses were actually quite low.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[KraziKanuK]

This by a guy who specializes in the Dora and says "only one type of radiator
(segmented ring) on D-9's". Other Doraphiles agree.

 

[Anonymous]

This by a guy who specializes in the Dora and says "only one type of radiator
(segmented ring) on D-9's". Other Doraphiles agree.

????

I never said that. The segmented ring was barely used. It was too expensive to build and too difficult to maintain. Each segment must be built into the plane one at a time. The annular radiator was used for almost all production units, and as its name implies, it was laid out longitudinally (front to back).

Besides, what does that matter? I'm quoting loss data from a USAAF report which shows that about 50 fighters were lost out of something many thousands of sorties (1880 for the 8th, 2000+ planes flying ? sorties each for the 9th).

See my post on Luftwaffe' overclaiming to see the relevance.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[KraziKanuK]

This by a guy who specializes in the Dora and says "only one type of radiator
(segmented ring) on D-9's". Other Doraphiles agree.

????

I never said that. The segmented ring was barely used. It was too expensive to build and too difficult to maintain. Each segment must be built into the plane one at a time. The annular radiator was used for almost all production units, and as its name implies, it was laid out longitudinally (front to back).

=S=

Lunatic

Go back a few pages.

You dispute what Doraphiles say and this from an expert on American a/c who that did not know the P-39 originally had a turbocharger.

I suggest you look at this link, http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw_fw.html, the file 33.jpg in the' Focke-Wulf Fw.190d9' zip file.

 

[Anonymous]

You dispute what Doraphiles say and this from an expert on American a/c who that did not know the P-39 originally had a turbocharger.

I suggest you look at this link, http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw_fw.html, the file 33.jpg in the' Focke-Wulf Fw.190d9' zip file.

First off, I've never studied the P-39 in detail, and the nature of the boost system that was deleted was not the sigificant detail in what I posted - that it was deleted was. I was unsure of its nature, but did not care to look it up. (BTW: be on gaurd from now on KK, I will call you on every error you make no matter how trivial or irrelvant).

Second off, I have studied the Dora9.

Third off - you are wrong if you think that .jpg file details a segmented ring radiator. In fact, you are wrong if you think it details any kind of glycol radiator. What it does do is detail the fan, oil cooler, and ram air scoop shapes, and regulators to control airflow. Go ahead and find a slavik -> english translator page and check it out.

So much for your "doraphile" status!

 

[KraziKanuK]

Second off, I have studied the Dora9.

Third off - you are wrong if you think that .jpg file details a segmented ring radiator. In fact, you are wrong if you think it details any kind of glycol radiator. What it does do is detail the fan, oil cooler, and ram air scoop shapes.

One does not have to study the P-39 in detail to know the the P-39 had the turbocharger removed.

No fan showing in any of the drawings. The drawing of the Jumo 213A shows the radiator, only. The drawing of the Jumo 213E/F shows the radiator, only. The drawing of the DB603E shows the radiator and the oil cooler at the top and this is the ONLY drawing that shows a oil cooler. Now tell me where the oil cooler was on the Dora with the Jumo213. We will see how much you have studed the Dora, besides the fact that you say the Dora had a fan.

Take a little trip to Dayton and take a real close look at the production Dora they have.

Still waiting for that Ta152H data.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

This by a guy who specializes in the Dora and says "only one type of radiator
(segmented ring) on D-9's". Other Doraphiles agree.

????

I never said that. The segmented ring was barely used. It was too expensive to build and too difficult to maintain. Each segment must be built into the plane one at a time. The annular radiator was used for almost all production units, and as its name implies, it was laid out longitudinally (front to back).

Besides, what does that matter? I'm quoting loss data from a USAAF report which shows that about 50 fighters were lost out of something many thousands of sorties (1880 for the 8th, 2000+ planes flying ? sorties each for the 9th).

See my post on Luftwaffe' overclaiming to see the relevance.

=S=

Lunatic

I am sure that overclaims were conducted by the Luftwaffe. I dont think that there was an airforce that did not overclaim but whos to say that that USAAF did not under quote there losses there. I know the other airforces did it so whose to say that the USAAF did not either.

 

[Anonymous]

Second off, I have studied the Dora9.

Third off - you are wrong if you think that .jpg file details a segmented ring radiator. In fact, you are wrong if you think it details any kind of glycol radiator. What it does do is detail the fan, oil cooler, and ram air scoop shapes.

One does not have to study the P-39 in detail to know the the P-39 had the turbocharger removed.

I just didn't bother to look it up since it was not relevant to the point being made. You make a big shit about nothing.

No fan showing in any of the drawings. The drawing of the Jumo 213A shows the radiator, only. The drawing of the Jumo 213E/F shows the radiator, only. The drawing of the DB603E shows the radiator and the oil cooler at the top and this is the ONLY drawing that shows a oil cooler. Now tell me where the oil cooler was on the Dora with the Jumo213. We will see how much you have studed the Dora, besides the fact that you say the Dora had a fan.

Take a little trip to Dayton and take a real close look at the production Dora they have.

It does not show any radiator detail.

The oil cooler sits in front of the rest of the cooling system. I thought there was a fan behind the oil cooler but perhaps not.

Still waiting for that Ta152H data.

Hmmm didn't I post it already? The translated manual is avial on this forum. What data are you awaiting?

 

[Anonymous]

I am sure that overclaims were conducted by the Luftwaffe. I dont think that there was an airforce that did not overclaim but whos to say that that USAAF did not under quote there losses there. I know the other airforces did it so whose to say that the USAAF did not either.

USAAF loss reports were extremely accurate. They also were not public till well after the war. Why would the USAAF under report losses? In fact, there are documents showing each loss by BU number and pilot in very specific detail. It is very easy to know if a plane was lost or not, it is much harder to know if a kill was really made. Most nations kept fairly accurate records of losses, though these are not always very available and mis-information was more often than not reported at the time.

See the thread I created about the Luftwaffe' overclaiming. It was substantial. I'd not make a big deal about it except for the claims that the Luftwaffe' kill claiming system was so much more "accurate" than that of other nations.. which it turns out is apparently pure bunk.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[KraziKanuK]

Second off, I have studied the Dora9.

Third off - you are wrong if you think that .jpg file details a segmented ring radiator. In fact, you are wrong if you think it details any kind of glycol radiator. What it does do is detail the fan, oil cooler, and ram air scoop shapes.

One does not have to study the P-39 in detail to know the the P-39 had the turbocharger removed.

I just didn't bother to look it up since it was not relevant to the point being made. You make a big s**t about nothing.

No fan showing in any of the drawings. The drawing of the Jumo 213A shows the radiator, only. The drawing of the Jumo 213E/F shows the radiator, only. The drawing of the DB603E shows the radiator and the oil cooler at the top and this is the ONLY drawing that shows a oil cooler. Now tell me where the oil cooler was on the Dora with the Jumo213. We will see how much you have studed the Dora, besides the fact that you say the Dora had a fan.

Take a little trip to Dayton and take a real close look at the production Dora they have.

It does not show any radiator detail.

The oil cooler sits in front of the rest of the cooling system. I thought there was a fan behind the oil cooler but perhaps not.

Still waiting for that Ta152H data.

Hmmm didn't I post it already? The translated manual is avial on this forum. What data are you awaiting?

Your were the one making it an issue with the P-39. Instead of saying 'oops, meant turbo' you pull the weasel thing.

So much for you studying the Dora. You thought there was a fan? The oil cooler sits in front of the rest of the cooling system? You just proved you swing a big full shovel. For the next time you try to BS people, the Dora with the Jumo used a heat exchanger unit that was located beneath the engine.

Forget about the Ta152H stuff, for I know where that belongs.

 

[Anonymous]

Heat exchanger below the engine? Oh really... can you point it out please?

And what do you think a radiator is... a heat exchanger! But as you can see, they are on the sides of the engine.

Nope... the oil cooler definitely does not sit in front of the engine! Ummm... where is it again?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I just didn't bother to look it up since it was not relevant to the point being made. You make a big s**t about nothing.

No you just dont like the fact that some one knows more about it!

Why would the USAAF under report losses?

Why would anybody it happens. The more higher up it goes the more bunked it gets as you like to put it. All I am saying is that everyone did it.

 

[KraziKanuK]

Heat exchanger below the engine? Oh really... can you point it out please?


And what do you think a radiator is... a heat exchanger! But as you can see, they are on the sides of the engine.


Nope... the oil cooler definitely does not sit in front of the engine! Ummm... where is it again?

You have to ask? It is in the picture oh 190D expert.

A radiator typically uses air to carry away the heat, while a 'heat exchanger' uses another medium. Now you can go right ahead and squirm with semantics all you want but the Jumo A Doras used a radiator to cool the engine and an heat exchanger for the oil.

Luni you were the one that claimed the oil cooler was in front. You do not remember saying this? "The oil cooler sits in front of the rest of the cooling system. I thought there was a fan behind the oil cooler but perhaps not." Oh dearie me, oldtimers you have and even in 'black and white' a couple of times so that you could refresh your memory.