The best SOF of WW2

[plan_D]

I believe this discussion has been had but it would be good to bring it back to life.

The Ghurkas are not special forces in any shape or form. The Ghurka regiments are simply British Army regiments with recruits from Nepal, they are no more special troops than the Welsh Guards. The Ghurka's reputation and ability to fight is undisputed both my father and grandfather have met Ghurkas in the combat zone. My father was in the Falklands, admittedly the Ghurkas did have a back seat in that but he did get to hear how afraid the Argentinian troops were of them.
My grandad on the other hand had a knife held to his throat by a Ghurka that appeared from, apparently, nowhere in the jungle. My Grandad was in the second Chindit expedition, something I will always be proud of announcing. The Chindits were not special men, nor special soldiers, they were regular army grunts. Their success came from their morale and firm belief that they could fight the Japanese on the Japanese terms, and they did.

If this is a Special Forces discussion, I'm sorry, but I have to say the Chindits and Ghurkas cannot be included.

The SAS would be top of my list for best special forces, they achieved so much in the desert, Italy and NW Europe. They were not formed out of the LRDG but were, as Adler said, inserted by the LRDG during their time in the desert. The LRDG were simply a recon unit with expertise in desert navigation, brilliant minds and certainly special but they weren't the SAS.

The Royal Marines (Commandos) will always cause confusion because they were a regular unit and a special unit... difficult question. But I'm going to say that all the top special units would be British , sorry , but I think Britain made special forces a reality in World War II.

 

[Soren]

What about the BrandenBurgers ? I'd say they were atleast on the same level.

 

[Soren]

The Brandenburgers on Leros:

 

[plan_D]

The Brandenburgers achieved some remarkable feats but the problem I have is that they constantly wore enemy uniforms and the certain platoons were designated to operate in their own ethnic area. The Brandenburgers seem to be the masters of trickery [and if caught should have all been shot as spies, as many were] but in military terms the SAS were superior, yes disguised in some actions but the vast majority of the time the SAS were proudly wearing the British uniform miles behind enemy lines. They were so good at their job, disguises weren't needed.

As for your scenario, it has to be the LRDG - they'd map out the way to the Congo before anyone else was anywhere near. Unless they were all dumped in the jungle, then it'd be the SAS.

 

[renrich]

The US Army Rangers have their origins in Roger's Rangers which go back to the French and Indian War in the 1750s. Somewhere I have a copy of the rules that Roger's promulgated for his Rangers while on the march. Many of those rules still make sense today and are part of the training of SOFs today.

 

[drgondog]

The Brandenburgers achieved some remarkable feats but the problem I have is that they constantly wore enemy uniforms and the certain platoons were designated to operate in their own ethnic area. The Brandenburgers seem to be the masters of trickery [and if caught should have all been shot as spies, as many were] but in military terms the SAS were superior, yes disguised in some actions but the vast majority of the time the SAS were proudly wearing the British uniform miles behind enemy lines. They were so good at their job, disguises weren't needed.

As for your scenario, it has to be the LRDG - they'd map out the way to the Congo before anyone else was anywhere near. Unless they were all dumped in the jungle, then it'd be the SAS.

Based on the current (multiple) ops profiles for Special Ops I would have to go with SAS in WWII (and Burma post war) also.

From the US perspective, the Rangers, Raiders, Airborne and 1SSF (joint US/Canada) were all specialized heavily trained soldiers and used more as shock troops than 'sneak and peak' warriors. Marine Raiders performed the role in the Tulagi and SW Pacific but not pervasive enough to be considered with Brandenburger or SAS

the WWII Jedburgh would be closest of the above to a US Special Ops group in context of current Special Forces wrt training and leading 'indigs' as a force multiplier but they were single theatre and somewhat limited in ops profile.

If you want shock and awe, you have to consider 1SSF taking Monte Difensa, cleaning up one mountain top after another and then creating havoc in front of Mussolini Canal at Anzio - they would get my vote for a troop of that small size.

 

[Soren]

Plan_D,

The Brandenburgers far from wore enemy uniforms constantly, infact they wore FallschirmJäger uniforms mostly. They did do allot of covert operations wearing enemy uniforms, thats true, but they certainly didn't wear them constantly.

The Brandenburgers also took part in the daring rescue of Mussolini.

Another picture of the Brandenburgers at Leros:

 

[Soren]

Some more pictures of the Brandenburgers:

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ive seen quite a bit of Brandenburgers in there Wehrmacht uniforms as well.

 

[AL Schlageter]

The Devil's Brigade (1st Special Service Force) were no slouches. They had the Germans wetting their pants at Anzio.

"The black devils (Die schwarze Teufeln) are all around us every time we come into the line."

" The First Special Service Force arrived at the beachhead on February 1. A few reinforcements left it with a combat strength of 1,233, all ranks. Only one of its regiments was intact, the other two were at half-strength. The Force promptly took over one-quarter of Anzio's thirty-mile-long front, and in a week forced the Germans to withdraw more than a mile from the Mussolini Canal, which was situated at the right flank of the bridgehead."

"It was also at Anzio that the 1st SSF used their trademark stickers; during night patrols soldiers would carry stickers depicting the unit patch and a slogan written in German: "Das dicke Ende kommt noch," said to translate to "The Worst is yet to Come", placing these stickers on German corpses and fortifications."

Battles of the First Special Service Force :
Aleutians Campaign, 1943 :

Kiska Little Kiska - August 15-August 19, 1943
Segula Island - August 17, 1943
Italian (Naples-Foggia-Rome) Campaign 1943-1944 :

Monte la Difensa - December 3-December 6, 1943
Monte la Remetanea - December 6-December 9, 1943
Monte Sammucro - December 25 (Christmas Day), 1943
Radicosa - January 4, 1944
Monte Majo - January 6, 1944
Monte Vischiataro - January 8, 1944
Anzio - February 2-May 10, 1944
Monte Arrestino - May 25, 1944
Rocca Massima - May 27, 1944
Colle Ferro - June 2, 1944
Rome - June 4, 1944
Southern France, (Alpes-Maritimes) Campaign, 1944 :

Iles d'Hyères - August 14-August 17, 1944
Grasse - August 27, 1944
Villeneuve-Loubet - August 30, 1944
Vence - September 1, 1944
Drap - September 3, 1944
L'Escarène - September 5, 1944
La Turbie - September 6, 1944
Menton - September 7, 1944
Rhineland Campaign, 1944 :

Franco-Italian border - September 7 - November 30, 1944

 

[drgondog]

The Devil's Brigade (1st Special Service Force) were no slouches. They had the Germans wetting their pants at Anzio.

"The black devils (Die schwarze Teufeln) are all around us every time we come into the line."

My personal favorite outfit of WWII with Robert Tyron Frederick at the top of my list of American Regimental CO's in any war (with all due respect to Chesty Puller)

" The First Special Service Force arrived at the beachhead on February 1. A few reinforcements left it with a combat strength of 1,233, all ranks. Only one of its regiments was intact, the other two were at half-strength. The Force promptly took over one-quarter of Anzio's thirty-mile-long front, and in a week forced the Germans to withdraw more than a mile from the Mussolini Canal, which was situated at the right flank of the bridgehead."

This is slightly overstated as two battalions of 504PIR was shoulder to shoulder with 1 SSF at Mussolini Canal.

"It was also at Anzio that the 1st SSF used their trademark stickers; during night patrols soldiers would carry stickers depicting the unit patch and a slogan written in German: "Das dicke Ende kommt noch," said to translate to "The Worst is yet to Come", placing these stickers on German corpses and fortifications."

The 504 guys, particularly scouts Bachenheimer and Tedeschi were adept at finding a german foxhole with two occupants, slitting the throat of one and leaving the other one alive.


Battles of the First Special Service Force :
Aleutians Campaign, 1943 :

Kiska Little Kiska - August 15-August 19, 1943
Segula Island - August 17, 1943
Italian (Naples-Foggia-Rome) Campaign 1943-1944 :

Monte la Difensa - December 3-December 6, 1943
Monte la Remetanea - December 6-December 9, 1943
Monte Sammucro - December 25 (Christmas Day), 1943
Radicosa - January 4, 1944
Monte Majo - January 6, 1944
Monte Vischiataro - January 8, 1944
Anzio - February 2-May 10, 1944
Monte Arrestino - May 25, 1944
Rocca Massima - May 27, 1944
Colle Ferro - June 2, 1944
Rome - June 4, 1944
Southern France, (Alpes-Maritimes) Campaign, 1944 :

Iles d'Hyères - August 14-August 17, 1944
Grasse - August 27, 1944
Villeneuve-Loubet - August 30, 1944
Vence - September 1, 1944
Drap - September 3, 1944
L'Escarène - September 5, 1944
La Turbie - September 6, 1944
Menton - September 7, 1944
Rhineland Campaign, 1944 :

Franco-Italian border - September 7 - November 30, 1944

I have a hard time defining them as SOF, I have an even harder time conceiving of a SOF mission that I would not trust them to accomplish. That is the reason I categorized them more as shock troops in the above post - but their conception Was all about small, fast, mobile troops operating behind enemy lines in Norway destroying the Hydroelectric network..

What Frederick did in Greece as 'an advisor' post WWII really did define the future for Special Forces - but he was hounded out of the Army by the post war 'Legs'... what a man, what a soldier.

RIP General Frederick

 

[Soren]

I still say the Brandenburgers and the Commandos, plus maybe the SAS.

The Brandenburgers had the best equipment available to any unit, they were the best trained soldiers in the German army and probably in the entire world being both frogmen, paratroopers, ski mountain troops and covert spies. They were also well instructed in the use of enemy weapons vehicles.

(Notice the FG-42's and the recoilless cannon)

 

[drgondog]

I still say the Brandenburgers and the Commandos, plus maybe the SAS.

The Brandenburgers had the best equipment available to any unit, they were the best trained soldiers in the German army and probably in the entire world being both frogmen, paratroopers, ski mountain troops and covert spies. They were also well instructed in the use of enemy weapons vehicles.

(Notice the FG-42's and the recoilless cannon)

I have no problem with your choice and I admire Skorzeny as I said earlier. I just have a problem identifying most of the above as Special Ops in today's context.

 

[lesofprimus]

For me and my knowledge, I go with the Brandenburgers and SAS as the best, deciding which is tops is too detailed in the differing mission profiles/effectiveness..... I would follow up the Top choices with the 1st SSF... I, like Bill, admire the hell outta General Frederick as well....

I liked what the OSS and the Jeds did alot as well, but as Bill said, too small scale, not large enough employment.... Dangerous as all hell.... Big balls on those guys.....

 

[drgondog]

For me and my knowledge, I go with the Brandenburgers and SAS as the best, deciding which is tops is too detailed in the differing mission profiles/effectiveness..... I would follow up the Top choices with the 1st SSF... I, like Bill, admire the hell outta General Frederick as well....

I liked what the OSS and the Jeds did alot as well, but as Bill said, too small scale, not large enough employment.... Dangerous as all hell.... Big balls on those guys.....

Big Brass ones on all of them - present company included. tip of the hat to you, Dan.

Frederick and 1SSF was well and truly taught at Bragg. One of my uncles (Dr. Joe Hilsman) was a Thompson carrying MD in 5th Rangers and while he kissed zero asses he tipped his hat to 1SSF - a lot of Rangers and a few Airborne were in the replacement pool for 1SSF as they wouldn't accept regular 'legs'.

 

[Soren]

Bill,

What do you mean with "most of the above" ? (Not that I necessarily disagree)

Les,

I fully agree. The Commandos (As Bill points out) weren't spec ops soldiers as we know them. The SAS and Brandenburgers is another matter.

________________________

As for the Devil's Brigade, I agree, they were making some German troops nervous - seeing messages on fellow soldier's slit throat that you're next is a very sobering experience - haves you know that who'ever did that isn't afraid to get up close and ugly! Scary...

 

[AL Schlageter]

Bill, you do know that the 1SSF was composed of both Americans and Canadians. His 2cd OC was a Canadian.

My personal favorite outfit of WWII with Robert Tyron Frederick at the top of my list of American Regimental CO's in any war (with all due respect to Chesty Puller)

While doing a net search for more information came across this, SEALS - Awards - Special Forces - Roll Of Honour

 

[drgondog]

Bill, you do know that the 1SSF was composed of both Americans and Canadians. His 2cd OC was a Canadian.

Al - I did.

The 1SSF was pretty unique in a lot of ways and being 'bi-national' was one of them - at least for US and Canada. I think I mentioned that in one of my first posts above (but put Canada in Parentheses)

While doing a net search for more information came across this, SEALS - Awards - Special Forces - Roll Of Honour

I knew two guys who went all the way with 1 SSF and then on to Greece with Frederick. They said the Canadians they fought with were the bravest soldiers they knew.

One of them served with Arron Bank during Korean War when 10th was formed in Europe. He gave me his Fairbairn when he passed away - and I gave it to my oldest son when he went to FMF

Aaron Bank is another Spec War 'god' and well deserved respect as father of 'special forces' (US Army version, Dan)

I had a huge struggle 'disregarding Jedburgs' as best because theu were closest to progenitors of Special Forces doctrine today - but still limited in scope of ops and size as the Ops wing of OSS..

Regards

Bill

 

[lesofprimus]

I agree Bill, the Jedburghs book that I read was really enlightening.... I was impressed, and that aint done lightly....

I am familiar with Aaron Bank and his story.. Hell of a guy....

 

[drgondog]

Bill,

What do you mean with "most of the above" ? (Not that I necessarily disagree)

Les,

I fully agree. The Commandos (As Bill points out) weren't spec ops soldiers as we know them. The SAS and Brandenburgers is another matter.

________________________

As for the Devil's Brigade, I agree, they were making some German troops nervous - seeing messages on fellow soldier's slit throat that you're next is a very sobering experience - haves you know that who'ever did that isn't afraid to get up close and ugly! Scary...

The 504PIR had a couple of 'characters' from the italian 'hood' (Tedeschi being one that comes to mind from Ft.Bragg legends and the 'slit throat calling card' was apparently a Sicilian calling card that he instructed with several scouts in 504 - to great effect. Allegedly he had a full time job with a Capo before and after WWII. I KNOW the 504 performed the rituals and had heard the 1SSF had picked up the trick from them - maybe on of the few lessons they could learn from another unit.

The 504 and 1 SSF became well acquainted with each other at Anzio

On the selection, I dropped the Commando/Ranger immediately for the reasons I mentioned, then the Ghurka's for reasons mentioned above - not really Spec Ops from context of Force Multipliers like say, US Special Forces working with native guerilla's in small self contained units.

OSS per se didn't seem to fit but Jedburgs as Ops arm does fit. Special Boat Service seemed similar to UDT and limited in primary mission to water born ops?

I don't know anything about several other of the candidates but do think several of your choices were good ones to debate - especially SAS and Brandenburgers - for WWII. These guys are the progenitors that a lot of smart people like Aaron Banks and others studied.

So, that was my thinkin' as you posed the questions.

Spec War to me involves specially selected and trained men (not denigrating females but not today, thank you, for 20 mile humps with 70 pounds of gear at night) with multi disciplines to remain self contained and largely self sustaining.. multi lingual with intelligence gathering and dissemination skills, ploitical savvy, one hell of an ability to fight (and sneak in or out anywhere, any time) as a team in as many terrains as one sees a threat scenario emerging in which that small team could accomplish the mission.

Rangers, Commando's, 1 SSF fit the role of 'divisons in drag' that are mobile and tough and extremely resourceful but operate in Company to Battalion size force. People will generally 'know they are there' and where to find them and better bring a big lunch.

SAS, Force Recon. LRRPs, Special Forces, Seals take on specialized training and operate in small concealed units or well behind enemy lines.

They are frequently discovered screwing around in their (other guys) back yard doing bad things, like blowing up sh--, training native malcontents to blow up sh-- and generally make huge pests of themselves requiring a LOT of attention to try to contain them from blowing up more sh__.

It is those kind of guys (I didn't forget Spetznaz or Delta, or those sweet counterparts in Germany or NK or SK or Turkey, they are ugly fellows also)

Regards,

Bill