FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Thanks!!!
The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.
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davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Soundbreaker Welch? said:
I think you have to judge planes against its contemporaries, or rate them by era, and in its day, it was recognized a pretty doggone good. It was successful in nulifying the Mig (which was also pretty doggone good) threat in Korea and was always outnumbered and tended to fight over the enemys base. Unlike WWII, Korea was show time for the Sabre and Mig. All the other aircraft were a side show (not that they didn't contribute mightily, but because the Sabres kept the Migs away).
FLYBOYJ Here's some info on the MiG-15 vs. F-86 during the Korean War. ACIG which has always been a pretty reliable data base has made it's living on attempting to put together accurate information regarding air-to-air victories in the post WW2 years. Here's some numbers I got from Soviet pilots vs. USAF said:
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
FLYBOYJ said:
davparlr said:
There was criteria for confirming kills on both sides - many times a smoking Mig-15 made it across the Yalu and was not counted as a kill but was destroyed out of harms way of the F-86s. The Russians also claim that many US kills were over-exaggerated, with 2 or 3 pilots claiming the same aircraft. US pilots were professional pilots, diven by their career and duty, but unlike their Soviet counterparts did not have to shield their existence over North Korea. The Soviet pilots on the other hand were in North Korea covertly - they were paid bonuses based on performance and would of probably been severely punished for failure (remember Stalin was still in power). With the Soviet pilots getting "cash of kills" I would think they would exaggerate a bit (see the lower site I posted on my last post.) Here's a site put together by a Russian that paints a different story. This guy shows claims of aircraft that would of wiped out a whole typed of aircraft in the USAF inventory!!! (He shows 832 F-86s lost - I don't think there weren't that many built by 1953!!!!
http://wio.ru/korea/korea-a.htm
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Here's more from Winkipedia....
U.S. pilots claimed to achieve impressive success (although probably exaggerated) with the F-86, stating to shoot down 792 MiG-15s and 108 additional aircraft for the loss of 78 Sabres, a ratio in excess of 10:1. Some post-war research has only able to confirm 379 victories, although the USAF continues to maintain its official credits. Direct comparison of Sabre and MiG losses seem irrelevant, as primary targets for MiGs were heavy B-29 bombers, and primary targets for Sabres were MiG-15s. Recently exposed Soviet documentation claims that 345 Soviet MiG-15s were lost during the Korean war.
Soviet sources claimed at that time, however, about 1300 victories and 335 MiG losses. China's official losses were 231 planes shot down in air-to-air combat (mostly MiG-15) and 168 other losses. The number of losses of the North Korean Air Force was not revealed. It is estimated that it lost about 200 aircraft in the first stage of the war, and another 70 aircraft since Chinese intervention. Soviet's claims of 650 victories over F-86s and China's claims of another 211 F-86s in air combats are regarded as exaggerated by the USAF. A recent publication showed that the total number of USAF F-86s ever present in the Korean peninsula during the war was only 674 and the total F-86s losses due to all causes were about 230. With each side making their own claims it is difficult to conclude on the actual losses and kills of the air war.
U.S. pilots claimed to achieve impressive success (although probably exaggerated) with the F-86, stating to shoot down 792 MiG-15s and 108 additional aircraft for the loss of 78 Sabres, a ratio in excess of 10:1. Some post-war research has only able to confirm 379 victories, although the USAF continues to maintain its official credits. Direct comparison of Sabre and MiG losses seem irrelevant, as primary targets for MiGs were heavy B-29 bombers, and primary targets for Sabres were MiG-15s. Recently exposed Soviet documentation claims that 345 Soviet MiG-15s were lost during the Korean war.
Soviet sources claimed at that time, however, about 1300 victories and 335 MiG losses. China's official losses were 231 planes shot down in air-to-air combat (mostly MiG-15) and 168 other losses. The number of losses of the North Korean Air Force was not revealed. It is estimated that it lost about 200 aircraft in the first stage of the war, and another 70 aircraft since Chinese intervention. Soviet's claims of 650 victories over F-86s and China's claims of another 211 F-86s in air combats are regarded as exaggerated by the USAF. A recent publication showed that the total number of USAF F-86s ever present in the Korean peninsula during the war was only 674 and the total F-86s losses due to all causes were about 230. With each side making their own claims it is difficult to conclude on the actual losses and kills of the air war.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Sounds like this is an argument that will never be solved. I'm bias, I think I trust the AF numbers.
Dac
Airman 1st Class
You also have to take into account the conditions under which most of the combat took place over the Yalu. The F-86s were almost always outnumbered and battle usually started with a height advantage for the Mig-15 pilots. They would wait north of the border where they were safe until they started hearing "bingo" calls from the USAF pilots at which point they "came shooting south like water from a firehose" to quote one American pilot. Often there were 4 Migs for each Sabre, and it had to have been a pretty damn good plane for it's time or a lot more U.S. pilots never would have come home.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I'm not biased, but I think the USAF claims are more crediabledavparlr said:
Yep - under these conditions a 2 to 1 kill ratio would of been excellent...Dac said:
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I think the F-86 was a great fighter and I doubt that there were any pilots that felt they were going to war with a substandard plane. Pilots tend not to be aggressive when they lack confidence in their steed. And Korean Sabre pilots were known for their aggressiveness.
Dac
Airman 1st Class
davparlr said:
That's true, the Sabre was overdesigned by 50% so it could handle 12G maneouvers in an emergency and had few handling flaws. The Mig-15 on the other hand could be temperamental. Soviet pilots were instructed in a spin to punch out on the third rotation because it was nearly impossible to recover after that. That wouldn't inspire much confidence.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I've been in love with both of these aircraft since I was a kid and a dream came true for me when I started doing work in Mojave California in the mid 90s. I got to work on both aircraft and flown in a Mig-15UTI. These aircrat were owned and operated by private individuals. Both aircraft are brilliant in their own ways but the F-86 is way more advanced and a harder aircraft to maintain becuase of that. The MIG isn't as stable and I noticed how it tended to "snake" at landing. The guy who owns the F-86 that I worked on stated if you get the aircraft too slow it will drop a wing at landing but was far more stable than the MiG-15.
12G's are you sure? That is quite a bit I would think for such an early jet fighter.
Dac
Airman 1st Class
FLYBOYJ said:
It's the same for me, the first book I every read was called "Mig Alley Ace" at age six and I've been fascinated by planes ever since. I envy you FLYBOYJ, the closest I've ever come to Sabres is at airshows and museums and I've never seen a Mig-15.
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Yup, they could pull that much in an emergency and not come apart. There would be some popped rivets that would need to be repaired though.
Hmm cool, did not think they could pull that back then.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
They couldnt, well the pilot that is....
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
that plane would possibly land but never fly again it would bend or crack somewhereDac said:
Dac
Airman 1st Class
pbfoot said:
As I posted earlier the Sabre was overenginered. It was designed for a sustained 9g load with a 50% margin. I wasn't good on the airframe to load it with 12g but for short periods it was possible. This is all second hand, but the accounts I've read say the damage was popped rivets which could be repaired.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The F-86s wings were riveted with explosive bolts, a process that North American came up with toward the end of the war. These bolts were very strong but if I remember they were steel intalled in an aluminum structure setting up a major corrosion trap.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I've got to work on 2 Mig-15s. One was a UTI, the other was a Chinese built one. The guy who owned the F-86 also owned the Chinese Mig, but he eventually sold it. He still has (and flies) the F-86.Dac said:
Dac
Airman 1st Class
There's a flight museum in Edmonton with some Canadair made Sabres that are still in good shape but not flyable. I bet it costs a small fortune to maintain one in flying condition.
My mistake on the g-loads for the Sabre: it was built for 7g with a 50% overdesign of 10.5g. The pilots who pulled 12g were pushing the envelope.
My mistake on the g-loads for the Sabre: it was built for 7g with a 50% overdesign of 10.5g. The pilots who pulled 12g were pushing the envelope.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I worked for a company named Flight Systems several years ago. We made drones out of F-86s (as well as F-100s and F-4s) We retained several Sabres and used them for flight testing. Here's a link of the company, this taking place way before I got there. If you scroll down the page there are two Sabers I worked on, both owned by Al Hansen.
http://f-86.tripod.com/fsi.html
http://f-86.tripod.com/fsi.html
