davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
pbfoot said:
From a pilots standpoint. The cost of replacing the plane, not relevant. The fact it stayed together to get you home, priceless.
The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.
- Thread starter 102first_hussars
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From a pilots standpoint. The cost of replacing the plane, not relevant. The fact it stayed together to get you home, priceless.
Dac
Airman 1st Class
FLYBOYJ said:
It's such a beautiful plane that's it's a shame to destroy them, too bad live fire tests are so important. I liked the Roland test pictures where the drone survived the missile hit but the self destruct was set off by the shock wave. They're very tough birds.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I seen a QF-86 at St. Nicholas Island, a Navy facility off the coast of California used for all types of testing. The aircraft was hit during target practice but most of the major components still stayed in tact - I think the self-destruct system did more damage than the actual skin shot.
Dac
Airman 1st Class
Here's an excerpt from a narrative by Major W.W. Marshall about combat against MiGs. He was leading a six plane element that included a senior officier doing his initial combat flights.
"We entered MiG Alley and, as advertized, dead ahead of us was a formation of forty enemy fighters. We dropped tanks and charged full throttle into the middle of the MiGs, as they broke formation in panic. One of our pilots was able to destroy or damage a MiG, but the majority fled accross the Yalu into China. Intelligence later reported that the MiG pilots told their ground commander they were under attack by a large force of F-86s and had been force to withdraw from the area.
During our attack I had suddenly become aware that our senior pilot wasn't with us. I had called him at once and he replied he was okay, so we continued to pursue the enemy fighters. I was feeling fine about the results of the mission when I returned to base. However, once on the ground I was called to wing headquarters, and instead of being congratulated was told that I was relieved of command of my beloved 335th Fighter Squadron for displaying reckless leadership in attacking a force of forty MiGs with only six Sabrejets, thereby endangering the safety of our pilots and aircraft. I was shattered.
I spent three miserable days sitting around, wondering what was coming next. Fortunately the matter was quickly resolved when it was determined that I had been following correct 4th Fighter Wing combat directives to always attack. It was with great relief that I again assumed command of the 335th Fighter Squadron."
HE also decribes engaging twelve to fourteen MiGs with just one section.
"We entered MiG Alley and, as advertized, dead ahead of us was a formation of forty enemy fighters. We dropped tanks and charged full throttle into the middle of the MiGs, as they broke formation in panic. One of our pilots was able to destroy or damage a MiG, but the majority fled accross the Yalu into China. Intelligence later reported that the MiG pilots told their ground commander they were under attack by a large force of F-86s and had been force to withdraw from the area.
During our attack I had suddenly become aware that our senior pilot wasn't with us. I had called him at once and he replied he was okay, so we continued to pursue the enemy fighters. I was feeling fine about the results of the mission when I returned to base. However, once on the ground I was called to wing headquarters, and instead of being congratulated was told that I was relieved of command of my beloved 335th Fighter Squadron for displaying reckless leadership in attacking a force of forty MiGs with only six Sabrejets, thereby endangering the safety of our pilots and aircraft. I was shattered.
I spent three miserable days sitting around, wondering what was coming next. Fortunately the matter was quickly resolved when it was determined that I had been following correct 4th Fighter Wing combat directives to always attack. It was with great relief that I again assumed command of the 335th Fighter Squadron."
HE also decribes engaging twelve to fourteen MiGs with just one section.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Great info! You might be interested in this..
HEADQUARTERS
FAR EAST AIR FORCES
APO 925
GENERAL ORDERS
NUMBER 40 24 January 1953
OFFICIAL CREDIT FOR DESTRUCTION OF ENEMY AIRCRAFT
Colonel Royal N. Baker, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1512I on 7 December 1952 near Sinuiju, Korea. Leading a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Colonel Baker sighted a flight of six MIGs. Colonel Baker initiated a diving attack on the MIGs and as the enemy formation executed a hard left turn to avoid the attack, the number two MIG suddenly went into an uncontrollable spin. The MIG continued earthward in the spin and crashed near Sinuiju.
Colonel Royal N. Baker, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one-half MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1514I on 7 December 1952 near Charyon-gwan, Korea. Flying as leader in an element of two F-86 aircraft, Colonel Baker followed his wingman in the attack on two MIGs. After his wingman had expended his ammunition, Colonel Baker took up the attack and scored further hits in the tailpipe section of the already heavily smoking enemy aircraft. The MIG went into a shallow dive and disintegrated in a ball of flame over Charyon-gwan.
Colonel Royal N. Baker, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one-half MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1406I on 16 December 1952 near Ta-plu-Shik-na-Kou, Korea. Flying as leader in a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Colonel Baker sighted approximately eight MIGs and led his flight into the attack. Singling out one of the MIGs, Colonel Baker fired, scoring hits in the left wing, fuselage and tailpipe sections. The MIG began to burn and smoke profusely. The wingman then took over the attack and shortly thereafter the enemy aircraft was observed to crash and explode near Ta-plu-Shik-na-Kou.
Lieutenant Colonel Louis A. Green, 336th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1535I on 7 December 1952 near Puckchin, Korea. Flying as leader of four F-86 aircraft, Lieutenant Colonel Green sighted a lone MIG. Closing on the enemy aircraft, Lieutenant Colonel Green fired, scoring hits in the engine section causing an explosion which was followed by heavy smoke and flame. The MIG started a left turn and Lieutenant Colonel Green scored further hits in the nose and canopy section. The MIG pilot ejected himself and the aircraft crashed into the ground near Puckchin.
Major James P. Hagerstrom, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1330I on 25 December 1952 near Sinsi-dong, Korea. While flying number three position in a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Major Hagerstrom sighted six MIGs and initiated an attack on the two trailing MIGs in the formation. In an attempt to ward off the attack, the MIGs pulled up sharply and went into a hard left turn. In this break, one of the MIGs suddenly snapped into a violent spin and crashed into the ground near Sinsi-dong.
Major Robinson Risner, 336th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1425I on 4 December 1952 near Yongsansi, Korea. While flying as leader of an element of two F-86 aircraft, Major Risner sighted a lone MIG making a firing attack on two other F-86 aircraft. After giving the alarm for the two F-86 aircraft to break, Major Risner positioned his aircraft for the attack. The enemy aircraft trying to evade, went into a spin. Following through the maneuver, Major Risner again closed on the enemy aircraft and observed strikes in the tail section of the MIG knocking off huge chunks of metal. The MIG was observed to crash near Yongsansi.
Captain Clyde A. Curtin, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1049I on 16 December 1952 near the Sui Ho Reservoir, Korea. Flying as leader of a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Captain Curtin observed two MIG aircraft and initiated an attack. Following through a series of evasive maneuvers, Captain Curtin closed to within range and fired, scoring hits in the rear fuselage section and both wings. Shortly thereafter, the enemy pilot ejected himself and the enemy aircraft was last observed in a diving position, trailing smoke and burning, near the Sui Ho Reservoir.
Captain Manuel J. Fernandez, 334th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1410I on 16 December 1952 near Wonsong-dong, Korea. While flying as number three in a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Captain Fernandez sighted a lone MIG making a firing pass on his wingman. As the MIG passed through the formation, Captain Fernandez closed and fired a prolonged burst, observing hits all over the enemy aircraft. The MIG began to smoke profusely and parts began to fly off the fuselage and tail sections. The canopy was then jettisoned and the aircraft struck the water and exploded near Wonsong-dong.
Captain Leonard W. Lilley, 334th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1412I on 16 December 1952 near Ubong-dong, Korea. Flying as leader of a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Captain Lilley sighted two MIGs and initiated an attack. Closing on one of the enemy aircraft, Captain Lilley fired, scoring hits in the fuselage and engine section. The MIG began to burn and emit smoke. The MIG was observed to crash and explode near Ubong-dong.
BY COMMAND OF GENERAL WEYLAND:
OFFICIAL:
//SIGNED//
D. R. LeMASTER
Colonel, USAF
Adjutant General
S. R. BRENTNALL
Major General, USAF
Vice Commander
HEADQUARTERS
FAR EAST AIR FORCES
APO 925
GENERAL ORDERS
NUMBER 40 24 January 1953
OFFICIAL CREDIT FOR DESTRUCTION OF ENEMY AIRCRAFT
Colonel Royal N. Baker, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1512I on 7 December 1952 near Sinuiju, Korea. Leading a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Colonel Baker sighted a flight of six MIGs. Colonel Baker initiated a diving attack on the MIGs and as the enemy formation executed a hard left turn to avoid the attack, the number two MIG suddenly went into an uncontrollable spin. The MIG continued earthward in the spin and crashed near Sinuiju.
Colonel Royal N. Baker, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one-half MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1514I on 7 December 1952 near Charyon-gwan, Korea. Flying as leader in an element of two F-86 aircraft, Colonel Baker followed his wingman in the attack on two MIGs. After his wingman had expended his ammunition, Colonel Baker took up the attack and scored further hits in the tailpipe section of the already heavily smoking enemy aircraft. The MIG went into a shallow dive and disintegrated in a ball of flame over Charyon-gwan.
Colonel Royal N. Baker, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one-half MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1406I on 16 December 1952 near Ta-plu-Shik-na-Kou, Korea. Flying as leader in a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Colonel Baker sighted approximately eight MIGs and led his flight into the attack. Singling out one of the MIGs, Colonel Baker fired, scoring hits in the left wing, fuselage and tailpipe sections. The MIG began to burn and smoke profusely. The wingman then took over the attack and shortly thereafter the enemy aircraft was observed to crash and explode near Ta-plu-Shik-na-Kou.
Lieutenant Colonel Louis A. Green, 336th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1535I on 7 December 1952 near Puckchin, Korea. Flying as leader of four F-86 aircraft, Lieutenant Colonel Green sighted a lone MIG. Closing on the enemy aircraft, Lieutenant Colonel Green fired, scoring hits in the engine section causing an explosion which was followed by heavy smoke and flame. The MIG started a left turn and Lieutenant Colonel Green scored further hits in the nose and canopy section. The MIG pilot ejected himself and the aircraft crashed into the ground near Puckchin.
Major James P. Hagerstrom, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1330I on 25 December 1952 near Sinsi-dong, Korea. While flying number three position in a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Major Hagerstrom sighted six MIGs and initiated an attack on the two trailing MIGs in the formation. In an attempt to ward off the attack, the MIGs pulled up sharply and went into a hard left turn. In this break, one of the MIGs suddenly snapped into a violent spin and crashed into the ground near Sinsi-dong.
Major Robinson Risner, 336th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1425I on 4 December 1952 near Yongsansi, Korea. While flying as leader of an element of two F-86 aircraft, Major Risner sighted a lone MIG making a firing attack on two other F-86 aircraft. After giving the alarm for the two F-86 aircraft to break, Major Risner positioned his aircraft for the attack. The enemy aircraft trying to evade, went into a spin. Following through the maneuver, Major Risner again closed on the enemy aircraft and observed strikes in the tail section of the MIG knocking off huge chunks of metal. The MIG was observed to crash near Yongsansi.
Captain Clyde A. Curtin, 335th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1049I on 16 December 1952 near the Sui Ho Reservoir, Korea. Flying as leader of a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Captain Curtin observed two MIG aircraft and initiated an attack. Following through a series of evasive maneuvers, Captain Curtin closed to within range and fired, scoring hits in the rear fuselage section and both wings. Shortly thereafter, the enemy pilot ejected himself and the enemy aircraft was last observed in a diving position, trailing smoke and burning, near the Sui Ho Reservoir.
Captain Manuel J. Fernandez, 334th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1410I on 16 December 1952 near Wonsong-dong, Korea. While flying as number three in a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Captain Fernandez sighted a lone MIG making a firing pass on his wingman. As the MIG passed through the formation, Captain Fernandez closed and fired a prolonged burst, observing hits all over the enemy aircraft. The MIG began to smoke profusely and parts began to fly off the fuselage and tail sections. The canopy was then jettisoned and the aircraft struck the water and exploded near Wonsong-dong.
Captain Leonard W. Lilley, 334th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, 4th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, is officially credited with the destruction of one MIG-15 type aircraft in aerial combat at 1412I on 16 December 1952 near Ubong-dong, Korea. Flying as leader of a flight of four F-86 aircraft, Captain Lilley sighted two MIGs and initiated an attack. Closing on one of the enemy aircraft, Captain Lilley fired, scoring hits in the fuselage and engine section. The MIG began to burn and emit smoke. The MIG was observed to crash and explode near Ubong-dong.
BY COMMAND OF GENERAL WEYLAND:
OFFICIAL:
//SIGNED//
D. R. LeMASTER
Colonel, USAF
Adjutant General
S. R. BRENTNALL
Major General, USAF
Vice Commander
Dac
Airman 1st Class
The 4th Fighter Wing was a good unit, one of it's commanders Colonel Meyers went on to command SAC.
HealzDevo
Staff Sergeant
I am going the MiG-29 Fulcrum as the best fighter. The ultimate combination I feel would be a Soviet Airframe with US electronics and systems. Failing that the MiG-29 has been in service for ages and has been the Soviet Front-Line fighter for a long time. It is highly manevourable and its only disadvantage is its electronics. At the height of the Cold War it proved its worth even against planes such as the F-15 Strike Eagle which were supposed to totally outclass it in electronics capability.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
In the few times they came across each other the F-15 mauled the Mig-29.HealzDevo said:
Israel - 4 Mig-29s destroyed
USAF Desert Storm - 5 Mig-29s destroyed
USAF over Kosovo - 4 Mig-29s destroyed.
USAF F-16s also got 2 Mig-29s, one during Desert Storm, one over Kosovo. All without one confirmed Mig-29 victory.
One could cite pilot training, I think the Mig-29's real world combat record is pretty poor....
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Wasnt there another Mig-29 loss where the F15 pilot forced the -29 into crashing into the ground without even firing a missle or cannon?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yep, Ceaser Rodreguez - he also shot down one over Kosovo a few years later...syscom3 said:
Dac
Airman 1st Class
FLYBOYJ said:
Pilot training and support is a big part of the story. The USAF training and operational pratices are superior. AWACS provide early warning and targeting and AAMs like the AIM-120 make it hard for opponents to escape.
- Thread starter
- #473
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
FLYBOYJ said:
It has to be pilot training because the Mig-29 is an excellent plane, its a match for the f-15, the pilots had shotty training is all
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The 29 is a good aircraft but was still about a half a generation behind the F-15, especilaly when encountered over Iraq.
- Thread starter
- #475
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
Well a canadian pilot flying a Hawker Hurricane once shot down an Me-262, so anything is possible
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
possible but not always probable. Pilot training and tactics always has a lot to do with it but when you sport a 1.5 to 6 kill record (I think that's the Mig-29 has) you gotta ask yourself "is it only the training?"102first_hussars said:
- Thread starter
- #477
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
FLYBOYJ said:
True but most of the Middle Eastern countries have shotty training, However the Iraqi airforce during GW1 as far as I know had pretty decent training, but their pilots were well known for not handling themselves well when coming across enemy planes, they usually f**ked off during a mission if they didnt get shot down first, but think of it this way if you put an experienced Israeli Pilot whos has been familiarized with a Mig 29 into that plane, and put him up against say a Saudi F-15 pilot ( I say Saudi because they did pretty good against the Iraqi Airforce) what do you think would happen?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Depends on the situation. The Iraqis had no radar control for its fighters, their "eyes" were poked out during the opening stages of the war, but to answer your question, I'd give it to the F-15 (nothing biased here) better radar, better weapons systems and a better performing aircraft.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
1.5 to 6, why not say 1 to 4 
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
That's what I got from my source, it actually comes out 1 to 6.the lancaster kicks *** said:1.5 to 6, why not say 1 to 4
