The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.

Lighthunmust said:

Plagiarism is a serious accusation that when wrong at the very least makes the accuser appear very foolish. This is especially true when analysis of a such a short document shows no verbatim transcription. Many sources of information, internet and book, make use of words I have written to describe the Gnat in this thread. My own analysis of information from multiple sources and media resulted in the phrasing of my opinion regarding the Sabre's humiliation and ignominy caused by the Gnat.

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Did I say you plagiarized you twit?!?!? It seems you used many of the same phrases shown in that site. If I wanted to accuse you of plagiarism, I'd come out and say it!!!! It seems you're getting rug burns on your elbows from your chairs armrests. Please come up with some substance here or quit while you're marginally ahead (and that's just a play on words)

I know I've already voted on this poll, but I'm going to be biased here as well and put in a mention for the Panavia Tornado. Been around since 1979, still in active service and in my opinion, the backbone of the RAF. Also cleared to carry almost all air-launched weaponry in the NATO inventory. I've personally worked on one of these aircraft and it just looks so sturdy.

Here's a picture of my baby, thanks to Airliners.net

I think it would be hard to argue against the F-22 being the greatest to date, but if the question was "most important," my answer would be very different. For that question, the F-4 Phantom would probably be my answer.

I would select the F-86 and Mig 17 as the Greatest Fighters of all time.
Given one choice chose the Sabre.

Sabre's fought against an equally trained Russian Air Force with an equally competitive Mig 15.
We got our butts kicked in Vietnam because of similar bone headed decisions and backward concepts we were afflicted with during WW2.
Vietnam Mig 17's were shooting down our 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation US Aircraft.

During dog-fighting exercises late model F-86's were giving grief to the newer generation fighters.
IF some how the Sabre was upgraded with a modern jet engine which are lighter and more efficient.
It would be a beast of an in close knife fighter.

Interesting how a aircraft developer North American Aviation and engineers from Britain familiar with air combat used real data to build a very robust fighter.
The Bell P-63, collaboration from Russia's experience with the P39 would have made the best fighter bomber of WW2.

In Korea we were lucky that the Sabre was developed with few quirks.
The F-84 was a overweight pig and the F-80 needed a swept wing to be a better dog fighter.
US Navy had different issues but were damn wise to add 20 mm cannon.
So if they got off a shot off on a Mig it was hurt.

Russia never sent their straight wing Mig 9 and Yak 15's to fight.
Their La 11 and Yak 9U were excellent propeller fighters but not competitive against prop or jet US Pilots
Though think we lost a Panther and Shooting Star to Yak 9's.
Russia did send a few La 15 to complement the Mig 15 with not much success.

The Israelis were highly successful again Syrian, Egyptian and Jordanian forces.
Because most Israeli pilots had combat experience from WW2, Korea and Vietnam.
They faced competitive aircraft with pilots not well trained.
Egypt IMHO had better pilots and when they got up to fight had a some success in air to air kills.
Israel was wise to knock out their planes on the ground.

Same happened in Iraq with well trained US forces. Iraq flew their planes to Iran.
If the US fought against an equally ready force like Russia again.
There would be a far different outcome more like Korea against the Mig.

The only Jet war we had that we fought against a competitive air-force was Russia in Korea.
The Chinese and Koreans were late developing skilled pilots.
Our 50 Calibers worked well enough to shoot down a good number of Migs.

During WW2 the P40 Warhawk was not as good as the ME-109.
Still the P40 was good enough to make a good accounting of itself .
Both sides had skilled pilots.
Plus the P40 was used for ground attack which the Me109 was rarely used.

In Korea late in the war the Sabre later was used for ground attack.
Though losses increased they gave out far more than they received.
Mig's were not used in that role.

It would be an expensive war if the US fought against a foe with equal capability.
Million dollar rockets shooting down $10 million AC.

D

Dan Fahey said:

We got our butts kicked in Vietnam because of similar bone headed decisions and backward concepts we were afflicted with during WW2.

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Hmmmm... There was a point during the Vietnam war were the kill ratio was about 1:1 mainly due to dumb ROEs implmented by the politicians of the day. Once airmen worked around the ROEs (like Robin Olds) the kill ratios went up drastically. After the first class of Top Gun arrived in country I think the navy had a spell of about 10:1 so please tell us where you could back up the statement about "getting our butts kicked! BTW, I suggest reading the book "And Kill MiGs" by Lou Drendel.

US Losses By Date
Date Victim Crew Service Victor Weapon Country Pilot(s) Source Comments
16-Feb-64 C-123 USA T-28 Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Ba Toperczer One survivor
15-Nov-64 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-17 PR China Kaitong Xu Yao/Wagner
02-Jan-65 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF PR China Huailian Zhang
24-Mar-65 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-17 PR China Xiangyi Wang Yao
31-Mar-65 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-17 PR China Jicheng Su Yao/Wagner
03-Apr-65 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG PR China Xiaohai Dong Yao/Wagner
03-Apr-65 F-8 USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Phan Van Tuc Toperczer Not confirmed
04-Apr-65 F-105D Bennett USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tran Hanh WoF
04-Apr-65 F-105D Magnusson USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Le Min Huan WoF
09-Apr-65 F-4B Murphy/Fegan USN F-4B AIM-7 USA Lost while in combat with PRoC MiG-17s
18-Apr-65 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF PR China Huailian Zhang

17-Jun-65 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Le Trong Long Toperczer Not confirmed
17-Jun-65 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
20-Jun-65 A-1H USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
20-Jun-65 A-1H USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
20-Jun-65 F-4C Kari/Briggs USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer
20-Jul-65 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
03-Aug-65 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-17 PR China
21-Aug-65 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-17 PR China Jicheng Su Yao
20-Sep-65 F-104C Smith USAF MiG-19 Cannon PR China Gao Xiang Smith/Yao
20-Sep-65 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Nhat Chieu Toperczer Not confirmed
05-Oct-65 F-104C or RA-3 USAF MiG PR China Yunbao Zhang Isby/Yao Not confirmed
14-Oct-65 F-105D Schuler USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Roll Call
06-Nov-65 CH-3C Lilly/Singleton/Naugle/Cormier USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Hanh/Hung/Lan/Phuong Toperczer Attributed to ground fire
24-Dec-65 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-17 PR China Yilong Zhu Yao/Wagner
03-Jan-66 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-17 PR China Xiangxiao Lu Yao/Wagner
03-Feb-66 A-1H USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Lam Van Lich Toperczer Not confirmed
03-Feb-66 A-1H USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Lam Van Lich Toperczer Not confirmed
07-Feb-66 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China Quanmin Feng Yao/Wagner
04-Mar-66 F-4 USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Ngo Duc Mai Toperczer Not confirmed
04-Mar-66 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi Toperczer
05-Mar-66 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China Xiaoqing Sun Yao/Wagner
14-Mar-66 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi Toperczer/Wagner
23-Mar-66 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China Yilong Zhu Yao/Wagner
12-Apr-66 KA-3B Gleason/Jordan/Harris/Pugh USN MiG Cannon PR China Laixi Li Yao

25-Apr-66 RF-4C Anderson/Tucker USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Ho Van Quy Toperczer
26-Apr-66 F-4C USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Ho Van Quy Toperczer Not confirmed
26-Apr-66 F-4C USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Ho Van Quy Toperczer Not confirmed
29-Apr-66 A-1E Boston USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Drendel
29-Apr-66 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China
05-Jun-66 F-8 USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
05-Jun-66 F-8 USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
07-Jun-66 F-105D Bayles USAF MiG-21 Rocket N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Attributed to AAA
09-Jun-66 F-4 MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
09-Jun-66 F-4 MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
21-Jun-66 F-8E Black USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Trung/Duong/Tan/Bay/Tuc Attributed to AAA
21-Jun-66 RF-8A Eastman USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Trung/Duong/Tan/Bay/Tuc WoF Attributed to AAA
29-Jun-66 F-105D Jones USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Huyen/Man/Bay/Tuc WoF Attributed to AAA
29-Jun-66 F-105 USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Huyen/Man/Bay/Tuc Toperczer Not confirmed
07-Jul-66 F-105D Tomes USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Tran Ngoc Xiu Toperczer Attributed to AAA
11-Jul-66 F-105D McLelland USAF MiG-21 Fuel N. Vietnam Dinh/Song Drendel/Toperczer
13-Jul-66 Unknown MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Phan Than Trung Toperczer Not confirmed
14-Jul-66 F-8E Bellinger USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Ngo Duc Mai WoF
19-Jul-66 F-105D Diamond USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Vo Van Man RollCall
19-Jul-66 F-105D Steere USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Bien Toperczer Attributed to AAA
19-Jul-66 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Ba Dich Toperczer Not confirmed
29-Jul-66 RC-47 Conklin/Hoskinson+6 USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Luu Huy Chao Isby
05-Sep-66 F-8E Abbott (USAF) USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment Toperczer
05-Sep-66 F-8 USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
16-Sep-66 F-4C Robertson/Buchana USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam PoW-MIA
21-Sep-66 F-4C Kellems/Thomas USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Dorr
21-Sep-66 F-105D Ammon USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Attributed to AAA
05-Oct-66 F-4C Garland/Andrews USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Michel
09-Oct-66 F-4B Tanner/Terry USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Minh Michel Attributed to AAA
09-Oct-66 F-4 USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Minh Toperczer Not confirmed
02-Dec-66 F-4C Burns/Ducat USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Attributed to SAM
02-Dec-66 F-4C Flesher/Berger USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Attributed to SAM
02-Dec-66 F-105D Moorberg USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Attributed to AAA
05-Dec-66 F-105D Begley USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam PoW-MIA Toperczer: MiG-21
05-Dec-66 F-105 or F-4 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
08-Dec-66 F-105D Asire USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Hobson Toperczer: MiG-21
08-Dec-66 F-105D USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
14-Dec-66 F-105D Cooley USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Dong Van De Michel
14-Dec-66 F-105D USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
14-Dec-66 F-105D USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
05-Feb-67 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
26-Mar-67 F-4C Crow/Fowler USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Attributed to SAM
14-Apr-67 F-4B USN MiG PR China Yimin Song Yao Not confirmed
19-Apr-67 F-105F Madison/Sterling USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Michel
19-Apr-67 F-105 USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
19-Apr-67 A-1E Hamilton USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tan/Tho/Trung Michel
19-Apr-67 A-1H MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tan/Tho/Trung Toperczer Not confirmed
24-Apr-67 F-4C Knapp/Austin USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Man/Dich/Bay/Hon Toperczer Attributed to AAA
24-Apr-67 F-4B Southwick/Laing USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Toai/Hai/Chao/Ky Toperczer
24-Apr-67 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Man/Dich/Bay/Hon Toperczer Not confirmed
25-Apr-67 A-4C Stackhouse USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Bay/Hon/Bon/Dich Dorr/WoF
25-Apr-67 A-4E Crebo USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Bay/Hon/Bon/Dich Toperczer Attributed to SAM
25-Apr-67 F-8 USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Bay/Hon/Bon/Dich Toperczer Not confirmed
25-Apr-67 F-105 Weskamp USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Toai/Hai/Chao/Ky Toperczer Attributed to SAM or AAA
28-Apr-67 F-105D Caras USAF MiG-21 Cannon N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Michel
29-Apr-67 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG PR China Jintang Zhang Yao
30-Apr-67 F-105D Abbott,J USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Toperczer
30-Apr-67 F-105F Thorsness/Johnson USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Le Trong Huyen Toperczer
30-Apr-67 F-105D Abbott,R USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Ngoc Do Toperczer
30-Apr-67 F-105 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dinh Toperczer Not confirmed
12-May-67 F-4C Gaddis/Jefferson USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Ngo Duc Mai Michel
12-May-67 F-105F Pitman/Stewart USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Huyen/Song Toperczer
12-May-67 F-105 Grenzebach USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tan/Tho Toperczer Attributed to AAA

12-May-67 F-4C USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tinh/Hai/Mai/Ky Toperczer Not confirmed
12-May-67 F-4C USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tinh/Hai/Mai/Ky Toperczer Not confirmed
19-May-67 F-4B Plumb/Anderson USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Phan Thanh Tai Toperczer Attributed to SAM
19-May-67 F-4B Rich/Stark USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Ngyuen Huu Diet Toperczer Attributed to SAM
20-May-67 F-4C Van Loan/Milligan USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tai/Diet Michel
22-May-67 F-4C Perrine/Backus USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Dang Ngoc Ngu Toperczer Attributed to AAA
12-Jun-67 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China Guangcai Liu Yao
26-Jun-67 F-4C Blandord/Jarvis USAF MiG-17 Cannon PR China Jiliang Lu/Zhushu Wang Isby/Yao
11-Jul-67 A-4 USN MiG-21 N. Vietnam Huyen/Song Toperczer Not confirmed
17-Jul-67 F-8 USN MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Nhat Chieu Toperczer Not confirmed
20-Jul-67 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Do/Ngan Toperczer Not confirmed
26-Jul-67 RF-4C Corbitt/Bare USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer
09-Aug-67 RF-4C Lengyel/Myers USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer
21-Aug-67 A-6A Scott/Trembley USN MiG-19 Cannon PR China Ruijie Han PoW-MIA/Yao
21-Aug-67 A-6A Buckley/Flynn USN MiG-19 Cannon PR China Fengxia Chen PoW-MIA/Yao
23-Aug-67 F-4C Tyler/Sittner USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Michel
23-Aug-67 F-4C Carrigan/Lane USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tho/Diep Toperczer
23-Aug-67 F-105 Baker USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Nhat Chieu Toperczer Attributed to AAA
23-Aug-67 F-105 USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Cao Thanh Tinh Toperczer Not confirmed
23-Aug-67 F-105 USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Cao Thanh Tinh Toperczer Not confirmed
23-Aug-67 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Tinh/Phong/Diep Toperczer Not confirmed
16-Sep-67 RF-101C Bagley USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Ngoc Do Michel
16-Sep-67 RF-101C Patterson USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Pam Thanh Ngan Toperczer Attributed to AAA
17-Sep-67 RF-4C Stavast/Venanzi USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Attributed to SAM
03-Oct-67 F-4D Moore/Gulbrandson USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Michel
07-Oct-67 F-105F Howard/Shamblee USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Michel
09-Oct-67 F-105D Clements USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Roll Call
25-Oct-67 F-105 Horinek USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Huu Tao Toperczer Attributed to AAA
08-Nov-67 F-4D Gordon/Brenneman USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi Michel
08-Nov-67 F-4 MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Dang Kinh Toperczer Not confirmed
18-Nov-67 F-105F Dardeau/Lenhoff USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Michel
18-Nov-67 F-105D Reed USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Michel
19-Nov-67 F-4B Clower/Estes USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Le Hai Michel Attributed to Atoll
19-Nov-67 F-4B Teague/Stier USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Din Phuc Michel
19-Nov-67 F-4B USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Phi Hung Toperczer Not confirmed
19-Nov-67 EB-66 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Dinh/Kinh Toperczer Not confirmed
20-Nov-67 F-105D Butler USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc? Michel
12-Dec-67 F-105 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
14-Dec-67 F-8 USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Toperczer Not confirmed
16-Dec-67 F-4D Low/Hill USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Michel
17-Dec-67 F-105D Ellis USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dnh Michel
17-Dec-67 F-105 USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dinh Toperczer Not confirmed
17-Dec-67 F-105 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi Toperczer Not confirmed
17-Dec-67 F-4D Fleenor/Boyer USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Michel
17-Dec-67 F-4C Brett/Smith USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Toperczer Attributed to AAA
19-Dec-67 F-105 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Toperczer Not confirmed
19-Dec-67 Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
19-Dec-67 Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
19-Dec-67 Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
03-Jan-68 F-105 USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Bui Duc Nhu Toperczer Not confirmed
03-Jan-68 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Bui Van Suu Toperczer Not confirmed
03-Jan-68 F-105 USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Ha Van Chuc Toperczer Not confirmed
03-Jan-68 F-105D Bean USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Dang Kinh Michel
05-Jan-68 F-105F Hartney/Fantle USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Michel
14-Jan-68 EB-66C Mercer/Terrel +5 USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Kinh/Song Michel Isby: MiG-17/Alkali
14-Jan-68 F-105D Horne USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Michel
18-Jan-68 F-4D Simonet/Smith USAF N. Vietnam Drendel
18-Jan-68 F-4D Hinckley/Jones USAF N. Vietnam Drendel
20-Jan-68 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China Yongwu Han/Yongcheng Zhou Yao/Wagner

03-Feb-68 F-102A Wiggins USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Michel
04-Feb-68 F-105D Lasiter USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Michel
14-Feb-68 A-1H Dunn USN MiG-17 PR China Wulu Chen/Shunyi Wang Isby/Yao
23-Feb-68 F-4D Gutterson/Donald USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dinh Michel
03-Mar-68 EB-66 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Kinh/Thuan Toperczer Not confirmed
07-Mar-68 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China Wenxing Jiang/Zhiyao Wang Yao/Wagner
15-Mar-68 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China Zhixin Wang/Enhua Zhang Yao/Wagner
18-Apr-68 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-19 PR China Huailan Zhang Yao/Wagner
07-May-68 F-4B Christensen/Kramer USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Michel
14-Jun-68 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Le Hai Toperczer Not confirmed
14-Jun-68 F-4 MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Luu Huy Chao Toperczer Not confirmed
16-Jun-68 F-4J Wilber/Rupinski USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Dinh Ton Michel
19-Jul-68 F-8 USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Le Hai Toperczer Not confirmed
01-Aug-68 F-8 USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi Toperczer Not confirmed
17-Aug-68 F-4B Gartley/Mayhew USN F-4B AIM-9 USA Michel
19-Sep-68 F-8C USN MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
21-Sep-68 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Dang Kinh Toperczer
26-Oct-68 F-4 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
20-Dec-69 OV-1 Long USA MiG N. Vietnam
??-Dec-69 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Toperczer
??-Dec-69 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Coc Toperczer
18-Jan-70 F-4 USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Phan Dinh Tuan Toperczer Not confirmed
28-Jan-70 HH-53B Bell/Leeser +4 USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Vu Ngoc Dinh Michel
10-Feb-70 AQM-34 Unmanned USN MiG-19 PR China Deqi Qi/Xincheng Zhou Yao/Wagner
??-???-71 UH-1 USA MiG-17 N. Vietnam
09-Mar-71 AQM-34 Unmanned USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Luong Duc Truong Toperczer
18-Dec-71 F-4D Johnson/Vaughn USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Le Thanh Dao Drendel
18-Dec-71 F-4D Stanley/O'Brien USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Vo Si Giap Drendel
18-Dec-71 F-4D Hildebrand/Wells USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Michel
27-Apr-72 F-4B Molinare/Souder USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Hoang Quoc Dung Michel
08-May-72 F-4 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Nguyen Ngoc Tiep Toperczer Not confirmed
08-May-72 F-4 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Son Toperczer Not confirmed
10-May-72 F-4D Harris/Wilkinson USAF MiG-19 Cannon N. Vietnam Pham Hung Son Ethell/Price
10-May-72 F-4D Lodge/Locher USAF MiG-19 Cannon N. Vietnam Nguyen Manh Tung Ethell/Price
10-May-72 F-4E USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Dang Ngoc Ngu Toperczer Not confirmed
10-May-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
10-May-72 F-4J Blackburn/Rudloff USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Le Thanh Dao Toperczer Attributed to AAA
10-May-72 F-4J Cunningham/Driscoll USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Vu Duc Hop Toperczer Attributed to SAM
11-May-72 F-105G Talley/Padgett USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Ngo Duy Thu Michel
11-May-72 F-4D Kittinger/Reich USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Ngo Van Phu Michel
18-May-72 F-4D Ratzel/Bednarek USAF MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam 923 Regiment Toperczer
18-May-72 F-4 MiG-19 N. Vietnam 925 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
18-May-72 F-4 MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Nhi Toperczer Not confirmed
20-May-72 F-4D Markle/Williams USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Do Van Linh Michel Attributed to stall/spin
23-May-72 A-7 Barnett USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat O'Connor Attributed to SAM
23-May-72 F-4D Byrns/Bean USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Attributed to AAA
23-May-72 F-4 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Pham Hong Son Toperczer Not confirmed
23-May-72 F-4 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Nguyen Hong Son Toperczer Not confirmed
24-May-72 F-8J Beeler USN N. Vietnam Drendel Attributed to SAM
01-Jun-72 F-4E Hawks/Dingee USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Pham Phu Thai Toperczer Attributed to SAM
13-Jun-72 F-4D Hanson/Fulton USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Pham Phu Thai Michel
13-Jun-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Do Van Lanh Toperczer Not confirmed
21-Jun-72 F-4D Rose/Callaghan USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Do Van Lanh Michel
23-Jun-72 F-4D USAF MiG-21 other N. Vietnam Michel Stall/spin - Not confirmed
24-Jun-72 F-4C Grant/Beekman USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat Michel
24-Jun-72 F-4C McCarty/Jackson USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Nghia Toperczer
24-Jun-72 F-4 USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Ngo Duy Thu Toperczer Not confirmed
26-Jun-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
27-Jun-72 F-4E Cerak/Dingee USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat Michel
27-Jun-72 F-4E Miller/McDow USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Bui Thanh Liem Michel
27-Jun-72 F-4E Aikman/Hanton USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Pham Phu Thai Michel
27-Jun-72 F-4E Sullivan/Francis USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Nhu Toperczer Attributed to SAM
27-Jun-72 F-4 USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Ngo Duy Thu Toperczer Not confirmed
05-Jul-72 F-4E Elander/Logan USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Ha Vinh Thanh Air Int
05-Jul-72 F-4E Spenser/Seek USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam Michel
08-Jul-72 F-4E Ross/Imaye USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Dang Ngoc Ngu Michel
10-Jul-72 F-4J Randall/Masterson USN MiG-17 Cannon N. Vietnam Han Vinh Tuong Toperczer Possibly MiG-21
24-Jul-72 F-4E Hodnett/Fallert USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam Hobson
24-Jul-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Ha Vinh Thanh Toperczer Not confirmed
24-Jul-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Le Thanh Dao Toperczer Not confirmed
24-Jul-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Trong Ton Toperczer Not confirmed
29-Jul-72 F-4E Kula/Matsui USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam Michel
29-Jul-72 F-105G Coady/Murphy USAF F-105G AIM-9 USA Hobson Own missile
30-Jul-72 F-4E Brooks/McAdams USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat Hobson
26-Aug-72 F-4J Cordova/Borders USMC MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat
09-Sep-72 F-4E Dalecky/Murphy USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Do Van Lanh Toperczer Attributed to AAA
11-Sep-72 F-4D Ratzlaff/Heeren USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Le Thanh Dao Michel
12-Sep-72 F-4E Zuberbuhler/McMurray USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam Michel
01-Oct-72 F-4D USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Michel Not confirmed
05-Oct-72 F-4D Lewis/Alpers USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Tien Sam Toperczer
06-Oct-72 F-4E Anderson/Latella USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Van Nghia Toperczer Attributed to SAM
12-Oct-72 F-4D Young/Brunson USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Nguyen Duc Soat Michel
23-Dec-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
23-Dec-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
23-Dec-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
23-Dec-72 F-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Toperczer Not confirmed
27-Dec-72 B-52 Morris+6 USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Pham Tuan Toperczer Attributed to SAM
27-Dec-72 F-4E Anderson/Ward USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Tran Viet Michel
27-Dec-72 F-4E Jefcoat/Trimble USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Tran Viet Michel
27-Dec-72 F-4E USAF MiG-21 N. Vietnam Tran Viet Toperczer Not confirmed
28-Dec-72 B-52 Lewis USAF MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam Vu Xuan Thieu Toperczer Attributed to SAM
28-Dec-72 RA-5C Agnew/Haifley USN MiG-21 Atoll N. Vietnam 921 Regiment Dorr

AQM-34

From this website Unmanned reconnaissance in the 1960s: the AQM-34 Lightning Bug

that says; "The path was pre-programmed, and modifications during the mission were not possible."

These were reconnaissance drones adapted from target drones and the fact that the North Vietnamese shot down a number of them doesn't quite equate to getting our butts kicked in air to air combat. A little editing of the lists?

http://www.historynet.com/great-kill-ratio-debate.htm

I voted for the F-15. Its combat record speaks for itself.

My heart says F-14, my head says F-4.

This is a tough one. I think you have to weigh the merits of each plane against others that first flew about the same time.
I would say its about a tie between the F15 and Tomcat. They were, in my opinion so far ahead of anything else in the early / mid 70s when they first flew.
I went with the Eagle because you can only pick one and for personal reasons its always been one of my favorites.

102first_hussars said:

The Planes that I posted are the ones that I could think off the top of my head Im sure there are better ones out there so feel free to add more input on other Jets

Click to expand...

XF8U-3... sure it never entered combat service, but neither did the CF-105

That said, if I was to pick the best fighter of all time I'd probably go with the F-22 because it's combination of speed, agility, avionics, and stealth.

If I was to pick #2 I'd probably go with the Su-30, and #3 would be either the F-15 or F-14 (when the F-14 was fitted with the right engines it became quite effective -- often able to beat the F-15)

That said, I have positive views of the F-86, F-8, and English Electric Lightning. The F-4 was far more effective than most would give it credit for, however.

Pretty sure he's not going to respond, plus he stated in his first post that the CF-105 never saw combat

He also hasn't been on the site in 9 years.

The Difference between Korea and Vietnam.
Before the Russians pulled out The Us was Lucky to have a 1.5 to 1 Kill Ratio Mig Vs Sabre
The Russians Mig's shot down our bombers, prop fighters, other Jet fighters (Meteor, F80, F84, Navy).