The Greatest Fighter Jet of All Time.

[pbfoot]

I wonder which one was more maintainer friendly from what I know the 104 was easy to work on . This leads to me to paraphrase a statement I once read . The 104 pilot challenged the Lightning jock to meet him abywhere at anytime if he could get it airborne without snags. IMHO the lightning has one major flaw and that was its total lack of range

 

[Glider]

Well, one has one engine, the other two, one has a simple radar the other a complex radar so logic tells me that the F104 would be the easiest to maintain. Also remembering that the two engines were vertically mounted I would imagine an engine change of the higher one would be more difficult.
As for range, my understanding was that the Lighting had a decent margin over the F104 from the F3 onwards when they were fitted with a larger ventral tank, which is why on operations during exercises they normally operated without any drop tanks. You would be hard pushed to find a photo of an F104 on ops without a drop tank.

 

[Lighthunmust]

If I was forced to choose; reason demands it be the proven and as yet unshootdownable F-15, sentiment demands it be the amazing looking, super-cruising, can get the bad guys at any altitude, and fast flying English Electric Lightning. Since no animals are likely to be hurt or killed in the making of this poll I will cast my vote for the Lightning, otherwise I would vote for the Eagle.

 

[renrich]

In "Tomcat" by Paul Gilchrist, "The F14D with half a load of internal fuel (8200 pounds) two Sparrow and Two Sidewinder missiles(1400 pounds) in a fighter escort mission configuration has a wind loading, with wings swept of only about 55 pounds per square foot. This is comparable to the Mig 21 and much better than that of the F15, F16 or F/A18 by a long shot." "That is why the F14s with the new engines(F14Aplus, F14B and F14D) are able to beat up so easily on new generation airplanes like the F16, F15 and F/A18." " It is the unique combination of low wing loading, high thrust to weight ratio and high Ps which yields what I call agility."

When one reads Gilchrist's book and realises how Congress and the Navy screwed up the development of the F14 it is a calamity. The vast majority of the F14s were built with engines which were supposed to be only interim engines and that everyone knew were inadequate. The losses of AC not to mention air crew during the Tomcat's lifetime caused by the bad engines cost many millions and the Tomcat only reached it's full potential with the last production models. Then the mistakes were compounded by choosing the Super Hornet over new manufactured Strike Tomcats.

 

[Lighthunmust]

In "Tomcat" by Paul Gilchrist, "The F14D with half a load of internal fuel (8200 pounds) two Sparrow and Two Sidewinder missiles(1400 pounds) in a fighter escort mission configuration has a wind loading, with wings swept of only about 55 pounds per square foot. This is comparable to the Mig 21 and much better than that of the F15, F16 or F/A18 by a long shot." "That is why the F14s with the new engines(F14Aplus, F14B and F14D) are able to beat up so easily on new generation airplanes like the F16, F15 and F/A18." " It is the unique combination of low wing loading, high thrust to weight ratio and high Ps which yields what I call agility."

When one reads Gilchrist's book and realises how Congress and the Navy screwed up the development of the F14 it is a calamity. The vast majority of the F14s were built with engines which were supposed to be only interim engines and that everyone knew were inadequate. The losses of AC not to mention air crew during the Tomcat's lifetime caused by the bad engines cost many millions and the Tomcat only reached it's full potential with the last production models. Then the mistakes were compounded by choosing the Super Hornet over new manufactured Strike Tomcats.

I have not read Gilchrist's book but I did read an article in Flight Journal I believe he wrote about the very issues you mention. You and Gilchrist may very well be correct regarding on paper performance. I wonder if other "Real World" issues combined to outweigh any somewhat superior on paper performance.

With regard to other candidates proposed for the honorific of Greatest Fighter, I think the reputations of the four listed below are not worthy to be awarded this title.

The EF-2000 does not have sufficient time in-service for a credible evaluation to reach a conclusion.

The Mirage 2000 as a fighter is only comparable to the F/A-18 which is more of an attack aircraft than fighter.

The F-86 Sabre's reputation suffers from the eternal humiliation of getting waxed so frequently by what is essentially an armed trainer. The Sabre is a beautiful aircraft with many fine attributes and accomplishments, but sometimes "One ah-shucks, equals a hundred attaboys".

The SU 37 ended up being more of a entertaining stunt plane for air shows than a fighter as it never accomplished much else.

 

[pbfoot]

The F-86 Sabre's reputation suffers from the eternal humiliation of getting waxed so frequently by what is essentially an armed trainer. The Sabre is a beautiful aircraft with many fine attributes and accomplishments, but sometimes "One ah-shucks, equals a hundred attaboys".

.

what trainer would that be

 

[FLYBOYJ]

IThe F-86 Sabre's reputation suffers from the eternal humiliation of getting waxed so frequently by what is essentially an armed trainer. The Sabre is a beautiful aircraft with many fine attributes and accomplishments, but sometimes "One ah-shucks, equals a hundred attaboys"

I don't know what you're basing that statement on as the F-86 maintained a very good to excellent kill ratio from Korea thru its post war service. The F-86 was deployed during a time where air to air losses were expected due to the simplistic nature of this second generation fighter and the rules of engagement it was placed in. Depending who's numbers you believe the F-86 maintained anywhere from a 3 to 1 to a 6 to 1 kill ratio and even took on and shot down Hawker Hunters and MiG-21s over India/ Pakistan. Many times during Korea the F-86 was outnumbered upwards to 5 to 1 and despite the poor skill of some of the communist pilots UN forces encountered during Korea, the F-86 was constantly fighting at a disadvantage and winning.

A very famous American test pilot is said to have knocked down 3 IAF MiG-21s while conducting "training" with the PAF many years ago as a "military advisor."

I could tell you by both Saber pilots and maintainers (including this one from the warbird community), the F-86 is considered one of the most effective fighter aircraft in history despite taking lumps along the way, and its reputation was never anything but stellar.

 

[Coors9]

What's the combat record for the Lightning ????????????? F-86 is one awesome bird. Gotta go with the Eagle Drivers for the best of the best. Just the same , it's impossible to put one generation against another.

 

[renrich]

I think Gilchrist has more to back up his statements than just paper performance. He flew 167 combat missions over Vietnam. Commanded a fleet fighter squadron on three different deployments. He flew during his 33 year flying career 71 different foreign and domestic tactical aircraft icluding the F15 and F16. At age 51 he became the first flag officer to land a Tomcat on a carrier and had more than 400 hours in the Tomcat. During an air show in Gunnison, CO in around 1994 I talked to the pilot of an F14D who had flown in there. He said they could wax any F15 or F16 and felt sure they could take the Mig29 or SU27. I would not expect him to say anything else but Gilcrist's testimony seems to add weight.

 

[Lighthunmust]

I think Gilchrist has more to back up his statements than just paper performance. He flew 167 combat missions over Vietnam. Commanded a fleet fighter squadron on three different deployments. He flew during his 33 year flying career 71 different foreign and domestic tactical aircraft icluding the F15 and F16. At age 51 he became the first flag officer to land a Tomcat on a carrier and had more than 400 hours in the Tomcat. During an air show in Gunnison, CO in around 1994 I talked to the pilot of an F14D who had flown in there. He said they could wax any F15 or F16 and felt sure they could take the Mig29 or SU27. I would not expect him to say anything else but Gilcrist's testimony seems to add weight.

Hello Richard,

I was not in anyway referring to Gilchrist's lack of credibility. Please note I wrote that you both may be right. "On paper performance" as in quantifiable performance. "Real World Issues" as in not enough on paper performance superiority to overwhelm superior political performance to get dollars spent on the not obviously inferior enough Super Hornet.

How's the weather in Prescott on this last day of the monsoon? Down here its windy and we may get some rain.

Steve

 

[pbfoot]

Hello Richard,

I was not in anyway referring to Gilchrist's lack of credibility. Please note I wrote that you both may be right. "On paper performance" as in quantifiable performance. "Real World Issues" as in not enough on paper performance superiority to overwhelm superior political performance to get dollars spent on the not obviously inferior enough Super Hornet.

How's the weather in Prescott on this last day of the monsoon? Down here its windy and we may get some rain.

Steve

There is a marked difference in the various Sabres the US ones were not the equal of the Aussie or Canadian versions

 

[The Basket]

The English Electric Lightning absolute performance is still 'secret' but it is rumoured to be as good as the Mig-25 by some quarters.

I cant recall the Lightning in air combat.

 

[Lighthunmust]

There is a marked difference in the various Sabres the US ones were not the equal of the Aussie or Canadian versions

I am not sure why you made this reply to my reply to renrich about ADM Gilchrist and the F-14.

You are right about the U.S. Sabres not being the equal to the Aussie or Canadian versions. By the way it was Canadian versions that got waxed several times by the equivalent of an armed trainer. What unexpected ignominy to be borne by a bird full of pride.

 

[pbfoot]

I am not sure why you made this reply to my reply to renrich about ADM Gilchrist and the F-14.

You are right about the U.S. Sabres not being the equal to the Aussie or Canadian versions. By the way it was Canadian versions that got waxed several times by the equivalent of an armed trainer. What unexpected ignominy to be borne by a bird full of pride.

Your post indicated it was a reply to two people and that was the 2 previous posts that enquired on your Sabre being waxed by a Trainer
What trainer was this I might see a T38 getting a bounce but what else

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I am not sure why you made this reply to my reply to renrich about ADM Gilchrist and the F-14.

You are right about the U.S. Sabres not being the equal to the Aussie or Canadian versions. By the way it was Canadian versions that got waxed several times by the equivalent of an armed trainer. What unexpected ignominy to be borne by a bird full of pride.

Provide data!

 

[Glider]

I am not sure why you made this reply to my reply to renrich about ADM Gilchrist and the F-14.

You are right about the U.S. Sabres not being the equal to the Aussie or Canadian versions. By the way it was Canadian versions that got waxed several times by the equivalent of an armed trainer. What unexpected ignominy to be borne by a bird full of pride.

I admit that I would like to know more about this. Canadian Sabres were amongst the best and the pilots were well trained so it would have to be some trainer.

 

[Readie]

The English Electric Lightning absolute performance is still 'secret' but it is rumoured to be as good as the Mig-25 by some quarters.

I cant recall the Lightning in air combat.

Neither can I. The EEL is a magnificent jet fighter and a another example of a superb fast interceptor.

I voted for the Harrier. Not the most elegant but, so versatile and deadly.
Its performance in the Falklands Conflict has sealed its place in aviation history.
It was a true British first and one to be proud of...especially as the sun has set on our industry to all intents and purpose.
AND we beat the American aero industry in getting a variable jet thrust system to work and prove itself in battle.

Hawker Siddeley Harrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Cheers
John

 

[Lighthunmust]

Neither can I. The EEL is a magnificent jet fighter and a another example of a superb fast interceptor.

I voted for the Harrier. Not the most elegant but, so versatile and deadly.
Its performance in the Falklands Conflict has sealed its place in aviation history.
It was a true British first and one to be proud of...especially as the sun has set on our industry to all intents and purpose.
AND we beat the American aero industry in getting a variable jet thrust system to work and prove itself in battle.

Hawker Siddeley Harrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Cheers
John

Magnificent and superb are excellent definitions for the Lightning! The Lightning is truly intimidating in appearance, a attribute enhanced by the fact nothing looks like a Lightning. Your F-86, F-15, F-14, Arrow, etc. all look similar to other aircraft to the point of being generic in appearance. The Lightning is a unique masterpiece. It is not just about looks either, the Lightning has intimidating performance. It has one of the best types of victory to loss records of all the candidates in this poll. Furthermore, it has never been humiliated like the Sabre was by what appeared to be an inferior opponent.

With regard to beating the American aero industry: It was not the first time and I doubt it will be the last. See number 4 below.

 

[pbfoot]

Magnificent and superb are excellent definitions for the Lightning! The Lightning is truly intimidating in appearance, a attribute enhanced by the fact nothing looks like a Lightning. Your F-86, F-15, F-14, Arrow, etc. all look similar to other aircraft to the point of being generic in appearance. The Lightning is a unique masterpiece. It is not just about looks either, the Lightning has intimidating performance. It has one of the best types of victory to loss records of all the candidates in this poll. Furthermore, it has never been humiliated like the Sabre was by what appeared to be an inferior opponent.

With regard to beating the American aero industry: It was not the first time and I doubt it will be the last. See number 4 below.

alright you keep talking about the Sabre getting waxed by a trainer the only inference I can possibly see is a Gnat and its origins are as a light fighter. Now your talking about the Lightnings combat record please elaborate, the Lightning was a very short legged interceptor with fantastic numbers but if you had a large area to protect was as useful as a rubber crutch

 

[Readie]

the Lightning was a very short legged interceptor with fantastic numbers but if you had a large area to protect was as useful as a rubber crutch

Hello Neil, Interceptors are supposed to be short range protectors. The Lightning was a faster Spitfire in that respect. It was designed to protect her homeland, not some vast continent like yours. Horses for courses mon brave.
Cheers
John