The Guns We Own

[drgondog]

I Read an article in "American Rifleman" about someone who converted a Model 95 or 98 Mauser(I can't remember which) in 7 x 57 into a 284 Winchester. The bolt face of 7X57 and 284 Win is identical so only rechambering is necessary.

True - except the 284 is a rebated case with .500 base instead of .473 - I have run through a LOT of 284 based wildcats (currently have a 25-284 and 6.5-284) and for an action like the short M77 you have one potential problem which is not universal. Namely the little fat case sometimes offers a feed problem from mag. It must be borderline as both of mine are the old M77 short action and I haven't had problems with these two.

The only issue that follows is really more to the 6.5 with the long 140 gr bullet. You have to seat it deeper to get into that short mag. Mine is still very accurate but I wish the mag was ~ .15 longer/

Also read that Fred Huntington who owned RCBS dies had done the same thing. The 284 Win has a case capacity the same as the 3006 or 270 Win but the 284 Win was designed to be used in a short action like a semi auto or lever action rifle and the overall length of the factory load is only 2.8 inches. Consequently some of the case capacity is used up if a long bullet is used. The key to the conversion is to have the chamber deepthroated so the bullet can be seated out further.

You really don't need to do squat with M700/M77 long action (isn't the 7x57 slightly too long for the M77 short action magazine at 3.06 OAL?) but with short action, the limiting factor is magazine length as noted above. If you can't stuff it in the mag, throat length won't matter unless you like single shot only. The throat on my Shilen 6.5 was plenty long enough 'as is' to seat a 6.5-284 as far out as I wanted but my mag well is .3 too short (~3.0 vs 3.3OAL) .

The 284 Win case has a short neck so bullet choice is critical. In other words, if the bullet is seated too far out, the bullet will not be held firmly because the neck is so short. I went to Ed Shilen's shop and asked him if the conversion was feasible and he said, "gosh yes, I have one I have done for myself."

Ren - Out of curiosity - was his shop in Irving at the time? I used to hang around that place just off MacArthur a lot in the 60's and 70's before he relocated south of Terrel.

Called Ruger and talked to the guys at their factory and asked the same question and they said it could be done but why? Typical Yankees who had never hunted in West Texas or Colorado where long shots are the norm. The 7 x 57 is at best a 200-300 yard cartridge. Anyway, I made up a dummy cartridge, using the 140 grain Nosler Partition. The cartridge is 3 and an 8th inches long and the base of the bullet is exactly at the bottom of the neck. Shilen charged me, I seem to remember, 25 dollars to rechamber. I already had a Leupold 2 x 7 fitted and I bought a Canjar trigger and had it fitted. Started working up loads using 4350 powder and like my No 1, the hotter the load, the tighter the groups. The rifle has a 22 inch light barrel and I finally settled on 58 grains of 4350 which is a compressed load and theoretically should give more than 3000 FPS.

Ren - you should be careful with this one even if you aren't getting pressure signs. You using IMR or Hogdon for your .284? Hogdon MAX for a 140 gr (per their manual) is 53.0 grains around 47-48000 CUP. Nosler MAX is 51.5 of IMR 4350 so you have a possibly dangerous load - These loads will give you 86% case loads eliminating the compression chsllenge.

Also you shouldn't ever have a problem with 140 grain as far as the lands are concerned but be careful with 175's

The 284 Win is a very strong case and there are absolutely no signs of excessive pressure. The load chronographed at 3100 FPS and from a rest, it will print min of angle three shot groups. I explain the accuracy because the twist, nine and one half, is ideal for that bullet at that velocity, or more likely the rechambering done by Shilen is perfectly concentric with the bore. Interestingly the down range ballistics are almost identical to my 270 Win load withe 150 grain bullet. Zeroed at 300 yards it is 18 to 20 inches low at 500 yards with more than 1000 pounds of energy at that range. I made a one shot kill(lucky as hell) on a Pronghorn, sitting with a loop sling, downhill, no wind, at 640 paces with witnesses. I estimated it was 500 yards and must have held too high. The rifle and scope with sling and four rounds weighs less than 8 pounds and would be good as a mountain rifle on all North American game, excluding Brown Bear. Wrote the late Finn Aagard describing the rifle and load and he concurred in a nice reply. The big problem with the rifle is that factory loads won't shoot well because of the deep throat and much shooting with those loads would probably erode the throat. I have eight handloads left and gave away all my empty cases and dies and press and all so I am out of business. Oh well.

I love the 284 case. It was the 'short mag' before modern marketing types settled on the name. My 25-284 is just a short action 25-06 but seems to like only 115 Nosler Accubonds and 120 Nosler Partitions and 49 gr IMR4350

I have plenty of empty cases if you need some.

 

[renrich]

Many thanks for your informative post. I haven't handloaded in years but the 4350 I was using was the DuPont, IMR and in my handloading manuals, it was noted as a maximum load. You are so right about the feeding of the cartridge. That fat case with the steep shoulder sometimes did not feed well which reminds me of the Pronghorn shot. I squeezed off the round and grabbed the bolt handle to eject and feed another round and I got a jam. I looked down to clear the jam and when I looked up the Pronghorn had turned around twice and fell over dead. I just pulled that old rifle out and the opening to the magazine is 3.25 inches so the 3 and an eighth cartridge fits ok. I fed a few rounds into the chamber and they worked fine. I too really like the 284 case and I believe it was an early example of how efficient the new short magnum cartridges are. I believe a 284 case necked down to .277 and not loaded to capacity would make an ideal military round, unless that sharp shoulder would be a problem. Shilen's shop was in Irving at the time I contacted him. He was quite nice. Another story, not me, was that Fred Huntington shot a Grizzly in BC with this same load. The round went through both shoulders and was a one shot kill.

 

[drgondog]

Many thanks for your informative post. I haven't handloaded in years but the 4350 I was using was the DuPont, IMR and in my handloading manuals, it was noted as a maximum load. You are so right about the feeding of the cartridge. That fat case with the steep shoulder sometimes did not feed well which reminds me of the Pronghorn shot. I squeezed off the round and grabbed the bolt handle to eject and feed another round and I got a jam. I looked down to clear the jam and when I looked up the Pronghorn had turned around twice and fell over dead. I just pulled that old rifle out and the opening to the magazine is 3.25 inches so the 3 and an eighth cartridge fits ok. I fed a few rounds into the chamber and they worked fine. I too really like the 284 case and I believe it was an early example of how efficient the new short magnum cartridges are. I believe a 284 case necked down to .277 and not loaded to capacity would make an ideal military round, unless that sharp shoulder would be a problem. Shilen's shop was in Irving at the time I contacted him. He was quite nice. Another story, not me, was that Fred Huntington shot a Grizzly in BC with this same load. The round went through both shoulders and was a one shot kill.

Ren - at various times I was so in love w/284 that I had 25-284, 6.5-284, 284, 30-284, 338-284 and all shot well. I just started the reload process at the middle of a 30-06 wildcat of the similar caliber - usually with IMR 4350, IMR 4831, H 414 or RL 19

The new Federal case has the same or better potential for 30-06 length all the way through the 375 - but a .416 should be out soon - as well as the stuff around 7mm and maybe .25 but the latter would be seriously overbored as far as powder capacity to bullet diameter. Didn't bother Weatherby however.

 

[javlin]

For me my interest is just about any military issue as long as it has wood.

1:G43 matching through out,aftermaket scope mount with orginal scope
2:M1 Garand 1956 fitted with bar sight off parade rifle
3:West Hurley Thompson,have a 10" barrel waiting to go on one day
4:1903 Springfield very nice shooter
5:FN49 only order done by FN for the Argentine Navy in .308 with detachable,about 5000 made.
6:VZ24 very nice shooter
7:K98 latest addition nothing really special had to fill that hole in the collection
8:M1a standard with my handloads can pull down 1.5" groups @ 100yds open sight
9:Savage 93 in 22mag with accurized trigger
10:Mosant/Nagant 91/30
11:Inland M1 carbine 1944 in para trooper stock(not orginal) have original IO off to the side
12:1911 Springfield in WWII format

The pic is M1a,G43 and the FN49

 

[Amsel]

Very nice choice in arms.

 

[Soren]

Javlin,

Providing that the Karabiner 98k in your collection has a mint barrel then if you only shoot heavy rounds of 190 to 200 grains with it then you've probably got the most accurate rifle in your collection, I can almost guarantee you that.

A mistake made by many is using bullets weighing 150 to 175 grains in their K98k's, and while it can be very accurate with these bullets it simply wasn't what it was designed to shoot. The rifling of the K98k was designed specifically for heavy bullets of 190 grains or more, and thus you'll achieve by far the best results with bullets in that weight range.

Try using the following ammunition/projectiles:
200 gr FMJ-HBT Sierra MatchKing (Handload), BC = .520
198 gr FMJ-BT s.S. Patrone (Surplus/ I suggest scavenging the bullet and handloading it into a new cartridge) BC = .584
196 gr FMJ-BT from Sellier Bellot (Pretty much a copy of the sS round, just a tiny little shorter and lighter) BC = .557

The German milsurp and S&B rounds should average around 2550 to 2600 fps, and I'd handload after that as-well.

Btw, you need to get yourself a Swiss K31, now that's a sweet rifle!

 

[timshatz]

Nice collection Jav. Nice woodwork on those weapons.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello Soren,
The Portugese FNM ammunition is quite good also. I pulled at least one way back and found the bullet was either a 196 grain or 198 grain.

Hello Javlin,
What load do you use for the M1A? A B-Square scope mount works pretty well for that rifle. Also, I don't know if you already know this, but if your gun is match tuned, that bipod is probably hurting accuracy because it is unloading the tension between the stock and the gas system.

BTW, all VERY pretty guns. I do want a G-43, but don't have the spare cash.

- Ivan.

 

[Matt308]

I'll take the G43 thankyouverymuch.

And personally I have always liked the FN49. Very underrated.

 

[javlin]

Soren what is the BC abbreviation for?I have been using some 180g bullets of late and they have been fairly accurate.But I have to agree the 190+ range do function better just that nobody makes a cheap bulk bullet like that.Ivan I am using IMR 4895 @ 42.5g with a 150gBT from Remington.The load also works pretty well with the 165g Nosler or Sierra match.Ivan I might give that a thought about the bipod I have often thought about putting the girl back in orginal stock.The front band area was really tight when I first dropped her in this one and talk about stessed the barrel and fliers HA all over.Thks for the comments,I just like to one day get off my butt and set up my Thompson with the 10" barrel in WWII wood and looks even if only semi.I got a parts kit out Russia were the barrel I would say has never seen a bullet if not just for a test fire.Cheers Kevin

Matt the FN49 is one serious stout firearm you can abuse it t death it's all forged and solid.It is not a tack driver but very well will get the job done.

 

[MacArther]

The only thing I have close to an actual firearm is a paintball gun that I can crank to ~400-430 fps range. This one is just for kicks, because I haven't had the spring cut to change the FPS yet, and yes, it is a cheap Spyder. Added to the frozen paintballs, or the civil war replicas my friend made and gave to me, .68 cal for both, I could seriously bruise someone (dunno if I could do anything more save hitting the eyes or temples, but that accuracy doesnt happen very often with a Spyder)

 

[Lucky13]

Some nice looking bang-bangs there chaps! 8)

 

[renrich]

Bill, upon checking my handloading data further(I can't find all of it because the majority of my books are packed) my NRA handloaders guide shows handloading data with following: 150 grain Winchester power point with 58 grains of IMR 4350 in a Winchester 26" pressure barrel yields 3099 FPS MV with 51510 lbs chamber pressure. I think that data made me feel that my load was safe because the pressure barrel and the heavier bullet should give higher pressures than my load would. It also correlates pretty well with the 3100 FPS MV that I got with a 22 inch barrel. However, because of the time involved since I loaded and the possible change in powder composition, I am going to tell my daughter, who will inherit the piece, that if they do any handloading to start low and work up. Unfortunately, because of the plaintiff attorneys, all published data on anything has to be conservative. Obviously, you have done much more handloading than I, as I have only loaded for the 284, 270, 3006 and 41 Mag. I have a model 1895 Browning in 3006 that I really enjoyed shooting. That big lever gun made me feel like a true frontiersman with those fat cases flying out of the receiver. Interestingly, I seem to do better offhand with the peep sight on the 1895 than with a scope on the No 1. The action on my Model 77 must be the short action as a 3006 round is longer than the opening in the receiver.

 

[Matt308]

Soren what is the BC abbreviation for?.

Ballistic Coefficient

 

[javlin]

Thks Matt.Kevin

 

[Soren]

Hey Javlin,

The best commercial 8x57mm round around is probably S&B's 196 gr FMJ-BT round, and I believe the price in the US is good.

But if you're used to handloading your own ammunition I'd definitely recommend trying the 200gr Sierra MatchKing bullet.

Providing the bore is in mint condition then firing bullets in the 190 to 200 gr weight range with the K98k and you can expect sub MOA accuracy. So it's definitely worth trying

Hello Soren,
The Portugese FNM ammunition is quite good also. I pulled at least one way back and found the bullet was either a 196 grain or 198 grain.

Yeah I've heard its some good stuff from a couple of friends as-well, but what about availability price ?

 

[Colin1]

Someone's got to ask the dumbass question

What does 'handloading' mean?

I thought all weapons were loaded by hand

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello Javlin et al,

The FN49 isn't all that bad for accuracy. I believe I was firing a 7.92 version with various ammunition, but with the good stuff (all military surplus), it was doing about 2 MOA. It ISN'T quite as durable as you might imagine though. The firing pin is quite fragile. This is one of those guns you simply do NOT dry fire.

For others that may not have noticed, please observe that the magazine in the FN-49 isn't stock. The stock one is a non-detachable rounded box holding only 10 rounds. I have seen details about a conversion to use BAR magazines and mag does look like one from a BAR.

The M1A / M14 is typically tuned for match shooting by having the stock ferule apply a few pounds of downward pressure on the barrel band (hook) behind the gas cylinder. This was to dampen barrel vibrations. I have heard that the guns shoot typically much worse without the pressure. The pressure is created by glass bedding the receiver without the band in place so that the barrel is a certain distance (set by a spacer) away from the stock. When shooting a rifle match with a sling, the sling tension increases the tension of the stock pulling away from the barrel. The problem with the bipod is that the weight of the gun will unload the tension from the stock. The difference between tension and free floating will likely cause the rifle to shoot to an entirely different point of aim.

DON'T SET UP THE THOMPSON WITH A 10 INCH BARREL!!!! If you do, you will be breaking Federal law by creating a sawed-off rifle. A rifle must have a barrel at least 16 inches long!!!!

Regarding handloads for .308, I typically use the same powder charge you described or something similar to push a 168 grain HPBT match bullet to 2600-2650 fps. IMR 4064 and Winchester 748 also work pretty well for this application.

Hello Colin1,
Handloading is the process by which the spent cartridge cases are resized back to original (we hope) dimensions and the expended primer, powder, and bullet replaced with new components. It is less expensive than new ammunition and hopefully the quality is better as well. The cartridge case is the most expensive part of small arms ammunition (usually) and it is reuseable to some extent.

- Ivan.

 

[Colin1]

Handloading is the process by which the spent cartridge cases are resized back to original (we hope) dimensions and the expended primer, powder, and bullet replaced with new components. It is less expensive than new ammunition and hopefully the quality is better as well. The cartridge case is the most expensive part of small arms ammunition (usually) and it is reuseable to some extent

Are set-up costs high?
What equipment is involved for re-charging spent cases?
So how many times can you re-use a spent case? I imagine there's only so many times you can strike the case with a firing pin.

Since the up-scale in terrorist alert, how difficult is it to buy gunpowder etc over the counter now?

 

[renrich]

One can get into handloading fairly inexpensively in the US but it can get expensive if you want a lot of production quickly. I haven't done any in a while and gave away all my stuff but one needs a press, scales, dies, empty cases, primers, powder and bullets, plus a few other small supplies. I don't know what current prices are but am sure they are much higher than when I started. Just a guess but maybe 500 dollars would get one started. Smokeless powder should not be much of a terrorist alert problem.