The Guns We Own

[Ivan1GFP]

Regarding the cost of reloading:

It really depends on the kind of gun you are reloading for and how much labor you are willing to put into it. The more money you spend on equipment, the less labor you put in.

For loading handgun rounds (straight wall cases), a 3 die set with a carbide sizer will cost about $40 or $50 these days. A simple press like the "Lee Hand Press" may cost about $25 or $30. A press mounted priming tool may be about $15. A good scale will probably cost about $50 minimum. (I suggest buying a good electronic scale which will cost more.) A Lee "Perfect" powder measure is about $25 or so. That covers the basic equipment needed.

For rifles, it depends seriously on what kind of rifle you are reloading for. Some guns like the H&K G3 and the Tokarev SVT-40 are just not worth reloading for. Bolt action rifles are generally pretty easy. A simple neck sizing die will do for a while (I recommend the Lee Collet Die set). For a semi-auto, you will need a full length sizer and a RCBS Precision Mic headspace gauge. A lot of folks just use the full length sizer and create a headspace problem on a gun that is in spec. A case trimmer is also rather useful for a rifle. The Lee version is inexpensive but I prefer a bench mounted type. If you are trimming cases, you will also need a deburring tool. The Lee version is about $4. The RCBS version is about $10. I forget the brand of the version I use but it is about $20. Also useful is a primer pocket reamer to clean out residue and to uniform the depth. A carbide version (necessary because steel wears out quickly) cost me about $30. I forget what the flash hole uniformer cost me (probably about $15 or so).

These days, I use a Dillon 550B press (about $500) even when I am resizing rifle cases. I only need to handle each case once and the cases end up more precise (in my experience) than if I process them through a RCBS Rock Chucker press (about $100). I actually use TWO Dillon 550Bs because I got tired of changing back and forth from large to small primers.

As you can see, it all adds up quickly.
- Ivan.

 

[MacArther]

Could be a Finnish M27 or M28 Mosin Nagant.

I'm pretty sure its one of those.

 

[renrich]

Ivan, I enjoyed your post about handloading. Brings back old fond memories. One point about handloading. Often, one can work up loads that are more accurate in one's individual rifle than factory loads will be. There are a lot of premium factory loads around now when 40 or so years ago there were very few. I still believe that a well worked up handload often will surpass the accuracy of even premium factory loads and one will save money in the long run.

 

[drgondog]

Regarding Lee Enfield accuracy:
These rifles if set up properly are no less acurrate than the M1 Garand. I personally have shot 1.5 inch 5 shot groups with the rather poor open sights on a No.1 Mk.III*. Unfortunately I didn't do any better with the better sights on No.4.

The military tends to set up these guns with fairly long headspace. IMHO this is not good on a target gun, especially with a flexible receiver as on these guns.

On the No.4 the bolt heads are replaceable. They come in sizes marked 0,1,2,3. Do not buy a rifle that already has a 3 bolt head unless you can verify the headspace is tight. There are a couple ways to "regulate" this rifle. See the attachment for the method used by the Canadians.

On the No.1 Mk.III and Mk.III* (* only means the magazine cutoff was deleted), the barrel should NOT contact the muzzle cap. There is a spring that holds a barrel loop not visible unless the guns is disassembled. There is a screw head underneath the rifle that tensions this spring. This spring is fairly crucial to accuracy on this gun and the gun won't shoot if the spring has taken a set. The spring can be replaced with a small piece off of a M1 Garand recoil spring if necessary. The bolts heads aren't numbered, but perhaps a combination can be found with replacement parts to correct headspace if needed.

Hope this helps someone out there.
- Ivan.

It would have been useful forty years ago. For my purposes the Mauser/FN or M70 or R/700 or M77 suit me a lot better for sporting uses. In retrospect the ones I had probably had those with a minimum of 20,000 rounds fire through them.

 

[drgondog]

Regarding the cost of reloading:

It really depends on the kind of gun you are reloading for and how much labor you are willing to put into it. The more money you spend on equipment, the less labor you put in.

For loading handgun rounds (straight wall cases), a 3 die set with a carbide sizer will cost about $40 or $50 these days.
EBay a great place to beat those prices by 1/2 if your'e patient

A simple press like the "Lee Hand Press" may cost about $25 or $30. A press mounted priming tool may be about $15. A good scale will probably cost about $50 minimum. (I suggest buying a good electronic scale which will cost more.) A Lee "Perfect" powder measure is about $25 or so. That covers the basic equipment needed.

Ditto on eBay - I got my RCBS electronic measure for about $60 - although that would be difficult now.

For rifles, it depends seriously on what kind of rifle you are reloading for. Some guns like the H&K G3 and the Tokarev SVT-40 are just not worth reloading for. Bolt action rifles are generally pretty easy. A simple neck sizing die will do for a while (I recommend the Lee Collet Die set). For a semi-auto, you will need a full length sizer and a RCBS Precision Mic headspace gauge. A lot of folks just use the full length sizer and create a headspace problem on a gun that is in spec.

What works for me is 'smoking' the case shoulder after initial resize, chamber it and look for chamber contact midway on case shoulder in the rifle I am setting up for. If I don't like it I adjust the sizing die 'offset' until I do. Do you have a simpler (or better) method?

A case trimmer is also rather useful for a rifle. The Lee version is inexpensive but I prefer a bench mounted type. If you are trimming cases, you will also need a deburring tool. The Lee version is about $4. The RCBS version is about $10.

I finally broke down and got the motorized RCBS case trimmer and deburr/pocket ream/chamfer/neck brush devices- these was my biggest single expense each although at retail the Rock Chucker and electronic powder measure would have been more expensive.

I forget the brand of the version I use but it is about $20. Also useful is a primer pocket reamer to clean out residue and to uniform the depth. A carbide version (necessary because steel wears out quickly) cost me about $30. I forget what the flash hole uniformer cost me (probably about $15 or so).

I also like to use the manual primer seater - mine is RCBS but the Lee is also good as well as the others

These days, I use a Dillon 550B press (about $500) even when I am resizing rifle cases. I only need to handle each case once and the cases end up more precise (in my experience) than if I process them through a RCBS Rock Chucker press (about $100). I actually use TWO Dillon 550Bs because I got tired of changing back and forth from large to small primers.

If I wanted an auto press I would go Dillon also.
As you can see, it all adds up quickly.
- Ivan.

The Gun List, local papers, gun club bulletin boards are also good places to look for bargins from people selling their gear.

Last but not least - you MUST have a decent set of dial calipers to check case base diameter, case length and OAL of finished product

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello Renrich, Drgondog:

Since you two are hand loaders also, you know that I barely touched on the subject.

Renrich,
The saving money part is a given if you shoot a lot. This is made up for by the extra time spent in experimentation. A friend of mine shoots a fairly hot .30 cal Magnum. I forget the exact caliber. I would not recommend that HE reload because he is basically a hunter and probably doesn't shoot 20 rounds ( More likely about 7 or 8 ) out of that gun in a year. I wouldn't even own that rifle because I would estimate barrel life to be about 500 rounds. With only a couple 3 round groups and a round or two fired at game each year, that rifle should outlast him.

There are factory loads out there that I find VERY hard to beat. Federal .308 Match is one. The advantage is that I can make up pretty much equivalent stuff for about half the cost.

There are also some cartridges for which the factory specs are just plain screwed up. Look at the .300 Win Mag. You really can't put a reasonable looking match bullet in that round without crimping on the ogive. I shoot a gun with a magazine length much longer than 3.34 inch needed for the .300 Win Mag. I seat the bullets out MUCH longer and get somewhere between 0.5 inch and 0.75 inch 5 shot groups. Factories can't do that because the SAAMI spec calls for 3.34 inch max OAL. Navy folks out in Indiana came up with the same idea probably long before I did.

Drgondog,
I don't disagree you can beat the prices, but with used equipment, I like to be able to examine before buying. You never know when you might end up with someone else's rejects or a tool that has been abused. Then again, if it is RCBS brand, they will stand behind the product.

No question a dial caliper is a useful tool. I don't believe it is essential, but very useful to have. I should have listed it anyway for safety reasons.

Regarding setting the dies for headspace, I believe the RCBS Precision Mic beats the heck out of just about any other method although if your bolt face is not square with the chamber, you may get wacky readings when reading headspace of spent cases. Also, if your gas gun begins primary extraction before the chamber pressure has dropped (not uncommon with M14 / M1A rifles), readings will be overly long. In the same gun, adjusting the dwell time by shortening the gas piston actually reduced the headspace of spent cases. I also collected spent brass from about 25 M14 types I encountered at the ranges. I don't think I found even one gun that had a square bolt face.

Instead of smoking a part to determine contact, I often use a dry erase marker. Works well and isn't as messy.

- Ivan.

 

[drgondog]

Hello Renrich, Drgondog:

There are factory loads out there that I find VERY hard to beat. Federal .308 Match is one. The advantage is that I can make up pretty much equivalent stuff for about half the cost.

Totally agree - for me Black Hills Match has been better than Federal Match and I spent some skull time figuring out that they use 46.5 BLC-2. The Federal still shoot well in my .308's

I won't keep a rifle that will not do a 5 shot 1 MOA with at least one factory load in the bullet weight I am most interested in.

I know that is not required for 99.9 percent of all hunting scenarios I can name - but it is a standard I set 40 years ago and today's factory stuff will do what the reload stuff will do in most cases.


There are also some cartridges for which the factory specs are just plain screwed up. Look at the .300 Win Mag. You really can't put a reasonable looking match bullet in that round without crimping on the ogive. I shoot a gun with a magazine length much longer than 3.34 inch needed for the .300 Win Mag. I seat the bullets out MUCH longer and get somewhere between 0.5 inch and 0.75 inch 5 shot groups. Factories can't do that because the SAAMI spec calls for 3.34 inch max OAL. Navy folks out in Indiana came up with the same idea probably long before I did.

I have a Mauser mag action set up for a .416 originally and found exactly what you did - that extra .25-.35 extra lmagazine length made a big difference

Drgondog,
I don't disagree you can beat the prices, but with used equipment, I like to be able to examine before buying. You never know when you might end up with someone else's rejects or a tool that has been abused. Then again, if it is RCBS brand, they will stand behind the product.

That would be a potential problem for eBay purchases but that is why I usually buy only RCBS and Hornady

No question a dial caliper is a useful tool. I don't believe it is essential, but very useful to have. I should have listed it anyway for safety reasons.

I depend on it when I am working up hot loads - to check the head diameter expansion

Regarding setting the dies for headspace, I believe the RCBS Precision Mic beats the heck out of just about any other method although if your bolt face is not square with the chamber, you may get wacky readings when reading headspace of spent cases. Also, if your gas gun begins primary extraction before the chamber pressure has dropped (not uncommon with M14 / M1A rifles), readings will be overly long. In the same gun, adjusting the dwell time by shortening the gas piston actually reduced the headspace of spent cases. I also collected spent brass from about 25 M14 types I encountered at the ranges. I don't think I found even one gun that had a square bolt face.

Instead of smoking a part to determine contact, I often use a dry erase marker. Works well and isn't as messy.

- Ivan.

I should have thought about it - I have been using a small kerosene lamp for inletting for so long I quit thinking.

Interesting tip about shortening the gas piston, although I true up bolt faces on all of my keepers. Like you I have also found that to be a first point of investigation when I bought a barrel for a new action and it didn't shoot to expectations,

 

[wclracer64]

1892 Winchester, .357 M
Ruger Vaquero (Old Model) .357 Magnum
.20 Gauge double barrel coach gun
M1858 Remington .44 Cal.
M1851 Colt Navy .
Blank firing M1911

Used to have:
1943 Dated M1 Garand
M1 Carbine

Sure do miss the Garand, ah what we'll do when we need the money!

 

[fly boy]

you guys remember the thing about that we should have a war with one of the states i think we have enough people with guns to do so

 

[Matt308]

Don't feel bad wclracer. Unless you had some pedigree on your Garand, chances are it was an arsenal rebuild and worth no more than any other Garand. While they are moving up in price, they are still relatively inexpensive for your typical Garand.

 

[Matt308]

you guys remember the thing about that we should have a war with one of the states i think we have enough people with guns to do so

"You guys remember the thing about..."

The 'thing'. The 'thing'. Remember what now?

"...that we should have a war with one of the states..."

Any one in particular? I personally like Kalifornia. Let's war with that one. Oooo... maybe New York!

"... i think we have enough people with guns to do so."

Us forum doinks? Likely not.

 

[GrauGeist]

Hey now...wait a minute!

Remember, we have the Governator as our chief...

We'll hold back until the bay area gets it, then the fight's on!!

 

[MacArther]

Hey now...wait a minute!

Remember, we have the Governator as our chief...

We'll hold back until the bay area gets it, then the fight's on!!

And once its on, the honorable Governator will lead the troops in his Terminator outfit, complete with awesome guns and cybernetic parts.....

 

[Torch]

I actually bought an M1 garand in pretty good shape with a new barrel but it's chambered for a .308. I have a ton of .308 laying around and don't use that round here in Colorado so i figured what the hell, I got a classic plinker. I kick myself in the a** because I sold an IBM carbine(all matching numbers) an M1a from a Marine who was on there shooting team and had been worked over by their armorers with a scope because I had to pay for the divorce lawyer when I divorced my 1st wife. Dumb dumb dumb.........

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello again Drgondog,

Be careful about concluding that a factory powder is a certain kind. There are LOTS of non-cannister grade powders that look an awful lot like cannister stuff. Also, the lot they used may have been a lot that was made as BLC2 but did not test properly. I found at least with my target guns that loading to velocity worked pretty well in .308. Another interesting thing was that M852 ammunition actually shot better than Federal Match, but the problem is that M852 is very hard to find.

I'll accept a rifle that can't shoot MOA. A lot of military guns won't.

For really high precision, I use a 1 inch micrometer that reads to 0.0001 inch. I also don't tend to load really hot loads. I pretty much settle for factory specs unless I am dealing with something like 8 mm Mauser where SAAMI specs are ridiculously low.

Actually I suspect we are very much in agreement. I am a tool junkie, so I tend to buy a lot of stuff that I probably won't use often. (I even have a Berdan deprimer from RCBS!) The equipment suggestion I was trying to make was just the essentials for someone on a budget.

Sorry to interrupt the discussions of rebellion.
- Ivan.

 

[drgondog]

Hello again Drgondog,

Be careful about concluding that a factory powder is a certain kind. There are LOTS of non-cannister grade powders that look an awful lot like cannister stuff. Also, the lot they used may have been a lot that was made as BLC2 but did not test properly. I found at least with my target guns that loading to velocity worked pretty well in .308. Another interesting thing was that M852 ammunition actually shot better than Federal Match, but the problem is that M852 is very hard to find.

I agree everything you said. As to Black Hills, I made my determination strictly on two observations - color/texture and length plus a test. I actually did a statistical sample on about 30 10gr samples to compare between the two (Black Hills Match and BLC(2). In my opinion they agreed. Am I right? Who knows but the exact weight, primer bullet and case seem to give the same extremely good results in my .308s

I'll accept a rifle that can't shoot MOA. A lot of military guns won't.

Mine will but I ran through more than a couple of M1 and M1A to get what I wanted - the AR's shot lights out immediately

For really high precision, I use a 1 inch micrometer that reads to 0.0001 inch. I also don't tend to load really hot loads. I pretty much settle for factory specs unless I am dealing with something like 8 mm Mauser where SAAMI specs are ridiculously low.

I agree again - but have to say I only toyed with checking concentricity, case weights, neck run outs ala serious Bench rest shooter for accuracy - and use my Micrometer only for the head when I am at max. I cross check velocity with my oehler also to get at least one more cross reference on SAAMI range.

Actually I suspect we are very much in agreement. I am a tool junkie, so I tend to buy a lot of stuff that I probably won't use often. (I even have a Berdan deprimer from RCBS!) The equipment suggestion I was trying to make was just the essentials for someone on a budget.

Sorry to interrupt the discussions of rebellion.
- Ivan.

Lol - tip of the hat to you. I suspect you are a further on the path to total reloading enlightenment but I am not far off - and already learned something from you.

 

[Doughboy]

I own a .243,.22LR,Mosin Nagant m44 carbine, and a 20 gauge.

 

[DBII]

Nothing fancy, my old stand by .45 cal Colt auto and a Mini 14 for plinking around. I have been thinking of getting the Storm .45 cal but the Mini 14 Tactical looks good. Any suggestions for a good carbine? As much as I would love an M-14 or M-1, I do not want to spend the money for a new one.

DBII

 

[Amsel]

Nothing fancy, my old stand by .45 cal Colt auto and a Mini 14 for plinking around. I have been thinking of getting the Storm .45 cal but the Mini 14 Tactical looks good. Any suggestions for a good carbine? As much as I would love an M-14 or M-1, I do not want to spend the money for a new one.

DBII

There are some very good American made Kalashnikov reproductions out there that are inexpensive but much more accurate then the Com bloc arms.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hi Drgondog,
Thanks for the compliment. Regarding 1 MOA rifles, M1, M1A, AR-15 can be tuned rather easily, but I really don't know any methods for SKS, AK, FAL, HK, Mauser 98, and the like. That doesn't mean that I own these rifles, but if one should come along at a good price legally, I would not turn it down even if the gun isn't expected to shoot MOA or better.

With M14 / M1A types, I don't know that I would spend the effort to square off the bolt face. Besides messing with headspace, you also would be changing firing pin portusion. Then again, it isn't much of a change.

Regarding some esoteric aspects of reloading, I really hate the expander balls that are used with typical rifle full length sizers. I bought some Redding S dies along with a couple bushings in the expected range of neck diameters for .308 Winchester in an attempt to full length size the case without the expander ball. I have not had the chance to try them yet. Another method would be an attempt to combine the Lee Collet set with some other method for reducing only the body of the case and a shoulder bump die. When you are using a Dillon 550 to just process rifle cases, there are quite a few possibilities with dies in each station.

- Ivan.