The Guns We Own

[Robert Porter]

I used .22lr and .22 shorts with a buckshot load as "varmint" loads for years. From a handgun and rifle. Mostly for rats, feral cats and coons, and the occasional woodchuck. Always from relatively close range. Squirrels mostly used a .410 same for rabbits. For bigger game always used bigger calibers.

 

[mikewint]

Torch I knew that you were joking but this is one of my buttons, not as bad as the Westboro Baptist Church but close.
The whitetail deer is a grand game animal, intelligent, fast and athletic. I do hunt whitetails and usually kill one every year. I most sincerely believe that such a fine animal deserves a clean humane kill, and quite simply the .17HMR cannot be counted on to do this.
There is a big difference in the penetration of a 17gr .17HMR and a 40gr 22LR. The .22LR will penetrate much further since 17 HMR rounds are designed to expand rapidly and thus when striking bone like a skull they simply fragment. Rimfires are not and were not designed to take large game.
Now while I posted the ft.-lb energy of the various rounds have, the amount of energy a bullet has doesn't actually kill game though the hydro-static shock delivered will cause the game to drop in its tracks. Death is brought about by massive hemorrhaging and that blood flows through the wound channel. A 17HMR will not leave a very big wound channel in a deer. Penetration will be very poor as well. I have seen woodchucks shake off a .17HMR to the body. Therefore IMHO, the chances of a non-fatal wound are highly likely with the 17HMR due to limited penetration and a relative small wound channel which may never reach the vitals in a larger game animal such as a deer. In the event the hypothetical 17 or 20-grain bullet did reach the arteries there would be no exit wound as the light bullet is lacking momentum to pass through the deer.
So even though one may have cut the necessary arteries to kill the deer the likelihood of recovering the animal is quite slim. As the deer would likely cover over a half mile before expiring leaving no blood trail for one to follow.
Now I would agree that a perfect head shot would kill a deer but I would be concerned about it deflecting off the skull. Head shots on larger game are always risky shots. Delivering a shot at the head of a deer can mean a direct hit to the brain, which is the center of all activities including movement. Headshots are known to paralyze all the body functions although they have received numerous criticism and even been termed unethical. A deer's brain is approximately three inches, which mean that the chances of hitting it are extremely low. The head of most animals including deer is one of the parts that move instantaneously without warning making aiming it difficult. However, this spot can end up causing serious injuries to a deer; for example; when a hunter misses the brain, and the bullet goes through the jaw. The deer will escape but later die a slow death because of starvation owing to the inability to feed.
So in short, the use of rimfires is not only risky, but totally inhumane. Asking a bullet that weighs as much as a paper clip to kill a 200+ lb animal is silly. There are a number of unethical ways one could kill a deer and the .17HMR/.22LR would be one of them.
It saddens me to say that I just watched a number of YouTube videos of cretins shooting deer and feral hogs with the .17HMR. The cretins were laughing as the animals thrashed about and tried to run as they pumped round after round into them.

 

[Torch]

Totally agree with your post Mike except for .17hm2s not .17hmrs. I used to have a Taurus Tracker that fired the now gone .17hm2(necked down .22lr) to go rabbit hunting, after a couple of rabbits taken with it I sold it and am back to using a .22lr solid or lead bullet. That .17hm2 flew at 2000fps or so and just turned the rabbit into jelly, wasting food was not my intent. My 20gauge and my S&W 617 plus my new S&W Victory do a great job. As for big game aside from shot placement anything or around a .260 would be fine for white tail. I have a .300wsm because with the right load I can take any game in the US plus the weight saving of a short receiver makes humping up and down at altitudes from 7k to 10k' just that much easier. Plus for Mulie a 300-400 yard shot is not unheard of.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Most anything will work right up until it doesn't.

Had a relative that "claimed" he had to stop his car for a deer in the road, He got out with a High Standard .22 pistol and when the deer didn't move he fired one round at the deer. the Deer fell over, He said he about fell over too, in surprise. He hit in the head, He wasn't aiming at the head.

I have also chased all over a Vermont mountain after a deer leaking blood from multiple buckshot wounds from another "hunter" in our party (never trust anyone who empties his gun every time he even glimpses a deer) When we finally found it (and finished it off) it had been running on 3 legs as one of it's legs had been broken by one of the multiple hits.

Use enough gun to make up for minor errors and go to the range enough to make sure your errors are minor.

I hate people like your "hunter" you describe.

I am all for hunting, but you don't need to cause unnessessary suffering.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I vote .30-30 in the woods, .270 in the fields, and .50 Hawken in the season.
If you don't like gun law restrictions, come to Vermont; we may be insufferably liberal, but we've got some of the least restrictive gun laws in the country.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[wlewisiii]

Currently I have a Rossi 92 & S&W 13 in 357 mag as my primary firearms.

I also have a WWII Japanese Arisaka Type 99 that was put in a Remington stock along the way, a T/C flintlock and need to.finish my 7mm Mauser VZ24 based carbine project. I also hope to get an inexpensive 20 gauge pump before the next duck season.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I also hope to get an inexpensive 20 gauge pump before the next duck season.

Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 in 20 Ga, both well under $300 at your local Wal-Mart.
Almost bought one for my girlfriend's first shotgun, but then stumbled on a really nice used Remington 1100 for not much more, and she was seduced by the autoloader's soft recoil.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[mikewint]

Chris, 150% agreement. We've taken whitetails in the past and found 3-5 .22 bullets lodged in their fore and hind quarters from some cretin shooting at them for "fun" I guess. Dad, granddad, and uncles pounded into my head many, many times shoot for meat, defense, varmints, and target. Be 100% sure of your shot and what you're shooting at (my dairy farmer uncle would loose at least one cow a deer season), never wound, and finish off anything that you do wound, nothing less than 30cal for big game. One year my uncle, after his second cow got shot, actually took whitewash and painted "COW" on both sides of each cow.
Wes, come to Arkansas sometime, Nuf said. (I'm being good Chris!)
wlewis, personal opinion: For waterfowl, I use shot shells loaded with BB-shot for long distance and/or #1 or #2 shot for close range over decoys. Finding 20ga shells loaded with bigger than #2 is very tough whereas 12ga has a much wider variety and can be found in heavier loads have a much wider variety available, i.e. more pellets in your pattern. I'd also suggest a semi-auto rather than a pump
TORCH, I've no personal experience with the Mach 2 .17 round but from Shooting Times Review:
Ballistic coefficients for the 17-grain bullet of the .17 HM2 and the 40-grain bullet of the .22 LR are close to the same, but the .17-caliber bullet shoots flatter because it starts out considerably faster. Its high velocity also enables the .17-caliber bullet to deliver the same energy levels downrange, even though it is 35 percent lighter.
The .17 HM2 strikes a 100-yard target with around 90 foot-pounds of punch, which is about the same as for both high-velocity and hypervelocity loadings of the .22 LR. However, it does fall short of the 110 ft-lbs delivered at that distance by the CCI Velocitor and its 40-grain bullet at 1435 fps. Also, I have found the .17 HM2 to be less sensitive to wind than the .22 LR Stinger.
When discussing the pros and cons of the .17 HM2, I must not overlook the safety factor. Whereas the bullet of the .22 LR has a tendency to hang onto most of its original weight and ricochet off into the wild blue yonder, the bullet of the .17 HM2 disintegrates into extremely small pieces upon impact so long as the range does not greatly exceed 125 yards.
During one of my test sessions, I filled 2-liter plastic bottles with water, aligned them three deep at 100 yards, and shot them with Hornady's .17 HM2 loading and the CCI .22 LR Stinger load. The .17-caliber bullet went to pieces inside the first bottle with only a single small jacket fragment making its way through the near side of the second bottle and coming to rest inside it. The 32-grain bullet of the Stinger completely penetrated all three water-filled bottles and disappeared into the dirt backstop.
I remain adamant that shooting at a +200lb animal with a bullet that weighs the same as a paperclip and is DESIGNED to fragment on impact is unethical, immoral, reprehensible, and as much as I hate regulations should be illegal even if it's Mach 10

 

[javlin]

So I went in @2300 I then went to 2500 I was a mouse in a lion's cage out of my league on this one.It looked like a good rifle for investment saw what looked like #57 in 2009 went for maybe 5-6K(?) this guy hit 13K today.Do you think #57 is happy?There was millions of dollars involved in this auction today I am just a regular joe.:Oh well Also sometimes I wondered if a big organization could of been involved possibly?just were does the NRA get it guns for display?

*EXTREMELY RARE HIGH QUALITY C... Auctions Online | Proxibid

 

[mikewint]

Not an authority by any means but like many museums, libraries, Halls of Fame, etc., items are on loan from the actual owners.
Items like that gun are often purchased as an investment much like buying land or antique cars in hopes that the price will go up in the future

 

[javlin]

I offer my G43 to the D-day Museum about six tears ago(loan) they did not have one in the collection sent pics and info never got a response back.One of my neighbors is a Teacher @USM said most museums work off donations these days which I did see alot of tags as such.The Son and I went in November and they now have a G43.

 

[Torch]

Going back to the .17hm2 vs .22lr I wonder if my experience with them and rabbits are more due to bullet design than the actual velocities. Mike what your saying makes sense about the HM2 with it's nylon tipped nose, that should fragment on impact more so than a solid nose .22lr.. But I will stick to my guns when it comes to my experience and wound damage caused by the .17hm2 vs .22lr. Where I go rabbit hunting there's no issues on ricochets so not really worried about that. Maybe the combination of hyper velocity and fragmenting rounds is the reason..

 

[mikewint]

Small game/varments are not a big problem around here. Though the occasional armadillo and gopher need to be sent to Valhalla every now and then. Dad/Grandpa taught VERY STRONG lessons about shooting small game ANYWHERE but in the head.
In that respect the .17 HMR and .22 WMR are both useful varmint and small game cartridges. Ammunition and rifles for both are widely distributed and commonly available. Recoil and muzzle blast are low for both, particularly from a rifle. They are good cartridges for use in semi-populated areas though the .17's fragmentation on impact means zero ricochet, a very big plus .
.17 HMR ammunition is generally more expensive than .22 WMR ammunition, but the difference will not be an unbearable burden to most small game and varmint hunters. For inexpensive practice at the range, neither is in the price class of the .22 Long Rifle.
Used with proper ammunition, the .17 HMR has an advantage in velocity, trajectory, and accuracy. The .22 WMR has an advantage in energy, bullet frontal area, sectional density, and consequently killing power.
IMHO, I would favor the .22 WMR for shooting small game and varmints within 100 yards, and the .17 HMR if shots often run much beyond that distance.
My BIGGEST debate would be with those who use either round on larger game like deer. Again IMHO unethical and reprehensible to the max and just pain cruel.

 

[Torch]

That I agree 100%

 

[mikewint]

Around here with the heavy forestation 50yds is a long shot and the "On-the-Hoof" venison begs to be shot. Many don't like the 30-30 because of the bullet drop but again here at 50yds the bullet (150gr. HP) is dead center and at 100yds its dropped .32in. Yea at 200yds its almost 8in low but that simply does not count around here

 

[Torch]

Reminds me of when I used to hunt in upstate New York, same thing 100 yards was a lot,usually when you were by the power lines but otherwise 50 yards was the average, Just about everybody in the group used .308s, maybe a .270. One guy we called Grandpa used a 30-30 lever action.

 

[mikewint]

THAT WAS ME!!! The aged flatulence.

 

[javlin]

Finished!

 

[mikewint]

Kevin, VERY impressive AND recessed into the wall. That must have required a considerable amount of carpentry skill. How did you find an interior wall deep enough to do that?

 

[Torch]

Nicely done!!, just saw an M1 Inland carbine at Cabela's(I know over priced anyway) but yeesh 1299.00 and it was kind of rough...So sorry I sold my IBM manufactured carbine, was PO'd at the company at the time. Never make rash decisions when it comes to firearms.