The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[KraziKanuK]

Nothing strange about wing 'twist' on the 152 as most a/c had some twist. The 190A had 2 degrees difference between root and tip, for example.

K. Tank did outrun some P-51s at low attitude in a 152.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The 152 was the best high alltitude aircraft at the time and it could have been developed even more. Tank had something going with this aircraft, and yes I agree with you Erich, it is bound to happen real soon as soon as some one reads what was written.

 

[Udet]

Erich:

Well i did say quite the same things you did.

As i´ve said elsewhere, just like any other plane of the war, the Ta152 was not a perfect machine, but even in the small numbers that saw combat, the worth of that superb design was proved.

Others come up with silly arguments like "it never saw the kind of service for which it was originally conceived" (meaning extremely high altitude combat)...so what???????????

At medium and low altitudes the Ta 152s enganged soviet Yaks and gave them a clean pounding. The VVS pilots were not precisely of top quality, still the Yaks are considered as some of the very best low altitude fighters of the war. So the Ta 152, while "conceived" as extremely high altitude interceptor, had superb medium and low altitude performance as well.

From Reschke`s records, also the Tempest got engaged at extremely low altitude and the Ta152 came out as victor.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would not say that the Ta-152 had the best performance at low and medium alltitude but it would deffinatly have given the best allied aircraft a run for its money. At high alltitudes it was superior to anything. Having said all of this, it was one of the best aircraft produced of the war and who cares if it did not see much combat, combat does not determin the qualities of an aircraft or how good an aircraft is.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Well said Adler.

Udet, I was not aware that Ta-152's ever encountered Yaks, let alone shoot them down

 

[Udet]

Provolone...sorry...Cheddar cheese:

Yep, it is absolutely confirmed: the Stabstaffel and I. Gruppe of JG301, which received Ta152s for combat operations engaged Yaks near Berlin in the very last weeks and days of world war II. (IIRC, also II./JG301 had Ta152s, do not have the papers at hand though)

The Yaks were outflown in combat with the Ta152 at very low altitude dogfights, and several victories were confirmed.

So that is why I say even if the Ta152s were conceived for extremely high altitude combat, flying in the opposite hemisphere of the graphic -at very low altitude-, its manouverability and handling were superb.

Finally, even if the following remark will certainly be the "final word", as Erich commented, not one Ta152 got lost in combat with the enemy.

 

[Erich]

correction Udet. In January 1945 III./JG 301 was equipped with the TA 152 in three of the four stafflen as well as their heavier A-8/R2's and some A-9's. The unit decided to terminate the Ta 152 and all surviving Ta's went to the Stab of the geschwader staff and pilots from III. gruppe that had flown the 152 were ordered to transfer to the Stabstaffel along with several other knowledgeable pilots.

I. and II. gruppe only flew the A-9 during 1945.

see you guys Monday sometime......off to the mountains and what little snow is left.....

Gruß

 

[Udet]

Erich:

Have a nice weekend, save some snow for the fridge!

Thanks for the remarks. I kind of knew that, i simply did not had the accurate info at hand. It is clear most of the Ta152´s victories over soviet fighters were achieved by pilots of the stab/JG301 (i.e. Reschke, Loos, etc.)

Still, I could say "i was sure" II./JG301 had Ta152s alloted to one of its staffeln, but well, perhaps alzheimer played a trick on me.

 

[Anonymous]

Nothing strange about wing 'twist' on the 152 as most a/c had some twist. The 190A had 2 degrees difference between root and tip, for example.

K. Tank did outrun some P-51s at low attitude in a 152.

The Ta had a lot of twist to its wing, and it was spread across a wide area not at a joint.

Tank claimed to have outrun some P-51's but there is no confirmation of this. It is unclear if the P-51's actually pursued him or not - they may well have broken off fearing they were being lured into an AA trap which was a common German tactic.

Also, it is quite possible he was simply lying, wanting to claim he'd finally built something that could outrun the P-51. He was under quite a bit of pressure to do so. The account is very dubious as the P-51's would already have had speed and there is no way the TA would have been able to accelerate fast enough to overcome that.

As a general rule you never take an engineer/designer's unconfirmed word concerning the competitive performance of their creation - too much pride and ego is involved.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[evangilder]

As a general rule you never take an engineer/designer's unconfirmed word concerning the competitive performance of their creation - too much pride and ego is involved.Lunatic

Very true, but the same could also be said from fighter pilots. You have to be careful taking any one person's word without verification.

 

[KraziKanuK]

The Ta had a lot of twist to its wing, and it was spread across a wide area not at a joint.

And how much is a lot of twist?

 

[Anonymous]

The Ta had a lot of twist to its wing, and it was spread across a wide area not at a joint.

And how much is a lot of twist?

I'll have to dig out the figure, but I think it was 2 degrees at the first joint, and then another 6 degrees out to the wingtip. There used to be a page giving very detailed info on the TA but it is either gone or down right now.

 

[Gemhorse]

Tell you who may know something on the Ta-152.... Claus Colling and his partner at Flugwerk, [whose building the rebuilt Fw-190's], could know something, as they spoke with Kurt Tank in their early development days, I believe....

 

[Erich]

Udet, II./JG 301 was the only gruppe in the Geschwader to be outfitted with the Fw 190D in 5-7th staffeln only. The I./JG 301 had the A-9 in 1945 and the 8th staffel in II. gruppe had the A-8 and A-9. Only III./JG 301 had the Tank and again as I said for an immensely short period transfering all stocks to the Geschwader stab; the III./JG 301 going back to the A-9 but primarily the heavier A-8's and A-8/R2's but without extra SturmFw armor.

E ~

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The problem with taking peoples accounts is that all pilots exagerate what happened.

Now RG what alltitude are you talking about. At high alltitudes a Ta-152 would outfly a P-51D.

 

[Anonymous]

The problem with taking peoples accounts is that all pilots exagerate what happened.

Now RG what alltitude are you talking about. At high alltitudes a Ta-152 would outfly a P-51D.

Certainly. But what was the point of a "superior" fighter at 35+ thousand feet?

The TA was designed to counter a threat that never materialized - B-29's at 33-35 thousand feet. Had such a campaign have been pursued, appropriate high-altitidude fighters along the lines of the P-47J, P-38K, and P-51H would have been given development priority.

The TA was the result of a successful deception. Germany was convinced the B-29 was headed for Europe, and spent resources to develop a fighter to counter it. How many hundreds of very effective Dora9's were sacrificed to deploy something between 35-60 TA's ?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There were 674 Doras built of all types. Later ones were built as Ta-152's. Whether deception or not, the Ta-152 was an excellent aircraft and you can not deny that.

 

[Erich]

curious why is there always reference to the B-29 in Europe and the German counter to it by developing the Ta 152. I have interviewed vets from JG 301 and nothing has ever been said about this......

 

[Anonymous]

There were 674 Doras built of all types. Later ones were built as Ta-152's. Whether deception or not, the Ta-152 was an excellent aircraft and you can not deny that.

Hmmm... info I have indicates more Dora9's than 674, I believe the figure is 850? I agree the Ta was an excellent aircraft but I'm not sure it was as good as it is made out to be. It is impossible to judge such things until tested in combat - and I don't mean a few prototypes. In very small quantities such a plane enjoys an "unknown quantitiy" advantage, its pilots know what to expect from the enemy planes, but the enemy has no idea what to expect from it.

At altitudes below 30,000 feet, I suspect the Dora9 or Dora12 were probably better than the Ta.

curious why is there always reference to the B-29 in Europe and the German counter to it by developing the Ta 152. I have interviewed vets from JG 301 and nothing has ever been said about this......

Why would you think the pilots would know anything about this? Since when did military intelligence share such details with pilots until they "needed to know" them?

It is well known that the German spies reported on the B-29 and the German's thought it was destine for Europe.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

I thought so.............bull.

You are not aware then of JG 301 capabilities and the closeness of the units Kameraden. The Ta 152 was designed to take on anything at high altitude not just high flying heavies. New marks of the 262 and other jet types developed by Focke Wulf were to take on the mysterious higher altitidue RAF and US bomber formations....