The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

Ok sys lets have the mods move our debate and I would rather call it that than argument to the Reichsverteidigung thread in Aviation, so if someone would plese be kind enough to do so. I have the German losses confirmed according to source log books from the JG's as well as BA/MA in Freiburg, Berlin and Aachen. these of course will not agree with US standings, the same of course will be told of RAF/German NF losses and claims.

v/r E ~

27th September 1944.

German losses were as follows.

18 Killed
8 wounded
32 a/c shot down 60-100%
0 a/c under 60% damage

7 October 1944

11 killed
4 wounded
21 a/c shot down with 60-100%
6 a/c under 60% damage

21 of November 1944

42 killed
22 wounded
83 a/c shot down with 60-100% damage
18 a/c with under 60 %

13 gruppen attack B-17 and P-51 units. Jg 301 is only given claims for 5 B-17's and 2 P-51's; according to the bomb group historian of the 398th bg. one squadron the 603rd loses 7 in a fiercest several second attack out of the clouds, the total lost was 15 B-17's

just a few notes....

Udet said:

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Now, the P-51 H? It did not even fly in Europe Jabber.

Now, let´s play a game and pretend the P-51 H has the chance of flying against the Luftwaffe. Also add the P-47 N, M (O,P,Q,R and Y reaching 12,900 hp) who hardly saw any action, if any, in Europe as well.

(Note nobody suggested the Ta-152 was a perfect machine. No plane made a perfect machine during the war)

Why is it that the allied boys -not you Jabber- only see the allies bringing on powerful might toys to the front against the Luftwaffe?

In our game, if the P-51 H and all the new Jugs fly in numbers against the Luftwaffe is due to the fundamental reason that the war got protracted.

A protracted war means the allies -even if they will win in the end- have not yet put Germany down on its knees; so any protraction of the war also plays in favor of Germany.

The war is protracted fundamentally due to German actions, and not for the actions (or omissions) of the allies who were hard pressed to finish the war.

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Perhaps. But your argument is had the Ta152 been produced in significant numbers, rather than the 60 or so that were actually fielded. So the counter argument that the P-51H might have been fielded to counter it is reasonable. More P-51H's existed on VE day than Ta152's, the reason they were not deployed was because they required different logistics support (parts) and it was deemend the P-51D and P-47's were sufficient to defeat Germany in 1945. Had significant numbers of TA's been in the air over Germany this decision would probably have been different. Likewise, the P-38K would likely have been produced (at the cost of about 10 days P-38L production). The P-47N would probably have been deployed in force to Europe (a few were sent to Europe) as well.

What you seem to wish to argue is the merits of the TA vs. the P-51D, P-47D, and Spitfire XIV. And against these foe's it did have some significant advantages, but we cannot really assess its real relative performance as it did not see enough action to really know. The TA had a huge advantage in that it was an unknown quantity, giving its pilot an edge over an adversary that would have been lost had the TA been more common. As for its turn rate, the only combat account of worth shows the TA barely out-turning a Tempest on the deck. The Spitfire and P-51 both significantly out-turned the Tempest, and so assumedly they would out-turn the TA.

Another, bigger issue, was servicablity. The TA was a plane racked with innovations, most of them complicated and requiring expert maintanence. IIRC never were more than about 1/2 to 1/3 of the available TA152 airframes airworthy. With the P-51's and P-47's typically 85% or more were ready for combat.

The TA was also very expensive to build. The P-51 by comparision, was relatively cheap to build. This combine with the higher servicabilty of the P-51 means that even had equal numbers been available on both sides, the P-51 would still have enjoyed a huge numerical advantage in the air.

Udet said:

As Erich correctly once put it, it is silly to debate if the 152 was conceived to deal with the dreaded B-29. By the way, no matter how sophisticated the B-29 might have been, had it seen action in numbers over Europe its fate would have been no different to that suffered by the B-24s and B-17s.

The Ta-152 (quoting Erich) was designed to deal with anything that flew over the Reich, as simple as that. The yak is frequently depicted as the "best low altitude fighter" of the wat. Whatever. The Ta-152 proved the Yaks were no match against it, at very low altitudes, suffering no losses against the VVS.

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Again, there is far too little data to make such an evalunation. Remember, over 90% of the pilots who survived being shot down in WWII stated they never saw the plane that shot them down or if they did it was not until after they were taking hits. Given the huge numbers of Yaks, often flown by inexperianced pilots, and in 1945 often flying ground support missions, and the very high level of experiance amoung the TA pilots and the hunter nature of their missions, it is not suprising that no TA's were shot down by Yaks. There were so few such engagements no real conclusions can be drawn. By 1945 the Soviets saw so few German fighters that they were probably easily caught by surprise in these very few instances - and of course they knew nothing about how to counter a TA, where the TA pilots knew exactly what to expect from a Yak.

=S=

Lunatic

(one of my rare opportunities to post)

Lune :

Remember what I have said in previous posting about the Gemrna day fighter force in 1945.

Over 1/2 of the Reich defence left at Janaury 45's end to go to the Ost front for the final battles over and near Berlin, and in fact several NJG were ordered to perfomr ground attack during the night and day agasint Soviet build-ups. there were plenty of a/c on hand to take on the Soviets and many victories were claimed, but end result was the fuel shortage and the reduction of the Reich due to the soviet steamroller on the ground, airfields were changed almsot every other day if not weekly come February onward.

From what we can see of the Ta 152 pilots although some of them highly experienced their own careers by admission was on the western front with practically no experience fighting Soviet flyers. could the Soviet pilots due to their mid level tactics been easier prey ? ............ possibly

Wow good arguments here guys. It is goign to take me a while to sift through all this stuff. Damn Vacations you miss a lot!

Lunatic said:

Another, bigger issue, was servicablity. The TA was a plane racked with innovations, most of them complicated and requiring expert maintanence. IIRC never were more than about 1/2 to 1/3 of the available TA152 airframes airworthy.

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Agh?

The Jumo had seen service. MW50 had been used previously. GM1 had been used previously. So what was so complicated?

It had nothing to do with requiring expert maintainance. It just the state of affairs at that point in the war. As with any other German a/c of the time, manufacturing was not the best.

So if the Ta152 was expensive to produce, then so must be the Doras and Antons?

I think one of the major problems would have been as stated about the manufacturing. Everything at that time was having to be produced quickly to try and get as much out as possible and that reduced the quality of the product, also as many have stated the lack of raw supplies.

as I said if someone would move the tjhis pages to Reichsverteidigung as it is not applicable to the Ta 152H

September 11, 1944, first action of a unified JG 4

15 different gruppen in action

56 piltos kia
23 wounded
113 a/c destroyed
20 with under 60% damged.

100th bg and the 92nd get rifled by JG 4 but JG 4 loses 21 pilots and 50 a/c in process.

12 September 1944 against the US 8th AF

15 gruppen again take to the skies

42 pilots kia
14 wounded
76 a/c destroyed
5 with under 60 % damage

JG 4 again takes the brunt of the losses with 12 kia and loses 17 a/c

The Ta-152 carried the wing twist that made it more stable in a stall. The Dora and Anton did not have that. That alone would make the Ta-152 harder to build than previous Fw-190s.

plan_D said:

The Ta-152 carried the wing twist that made it more stable in a stall. The Dora and Anton did not have that. That alone would make the Ta-152 harder to build than previous Fw-190s.

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The Anton/Dora had 2 degrees of wing twist.

Not as much as the Ta-152 though.

plan_D said:

Not as much as the Ta-152 though.

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Naturally it did as the H had a greater wing span. The twist from the A/Ds was just continued further out.

You have a serious attitude problem. It seems to me that you're just trying to make me look foolish or wrong but you're failing quite badly. You attempt on attacking my remark about the wing twist on the Ta-152 being more than the Fw-190s, why? You know that I'm right and the longer the wingspan, the more twist, the harder to build. Are you really stupid, or just an asshole?

Take it outside fellas. We don't want no blood on the walls in here. Too hard to wash out.

And D, calm the f*ck down.

plan_D said:

You have a serious attitude problem. It seems to me that you're just trying to make me look foolish or wrong but you're failing quite badly. You attempt on attacking my remark about the wing twist on the Ta-152 being more than the Fw-190s, why? You know that I'm right and the longer the wingspan, the more twist, the harder to build. Are you really stupid, or just an asshole?

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Me making you look 'foolish or wrong'? I don't have to try to for you sure are doing a good job of that all by your lonesome yourself. The only one being the AH is you pD, as usual. Your just POed 'Mr Expert on everything' because your were proven to be wrong.

The one with the serious attitude problem is you pD. Take NS's advice, "calm the f*ck down"!!! Do not worry NS, he is not worth it. He reminds me of a certain Hungarian lawyer who is always going off the emotional deep end.

plan_D said:

The Ta-152 carried the wing twist that made it more stable in a stall. The Dora and Anton did not have that.

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You never said in your original post that the H had greater twist. All I said was that the A/Ds did have some twist. I then said why the H had more degree of twist, not you. Then we see one of your rants.

Ever hear of jigs? The twist is built into the jig. Not hard to build the wing, at all. Every build a long wing span model glider (6-8')? No harder than building a 4' wing.

It doesnt matter if the Ta152 had a wing twist or not, cause they still would have been easily shot down by allied aircraft.

Now take your anger out on me......

syscom3 said:

It doesnt matter if the Ta152 had a wing twist or not, cause they still would have been easily shot down by allied aircraft.

Now take your anger out on me......

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Seriously doubt that, but okay you can keep on thinking that.

By the way I think everyone needs to take a chill pill. Everyone is getting wild out over stupid shit. Take a deep breath and drink a beer.

Syscom whom do you think III./JG 301 and the Geschwader Stab/JG 301 faced ?

they shot down US, RAF and Soviet a/c

I saw the specs of a top secret project to fit an R3350 to a Piper Cub to give it the ability to deal with the Ta152 at low and middle altitudes.

Now reread my prior posted comment, drink a beer, relax and have a laugh.

8)

actually having a glas of Deutsche wein, will pass on the bier.