The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[FLYBOYJ]

yes and more Fly. did you guys know that some Dora 9's had R4M racks installed in the spring of 45 ?

Yes - Well aware of the R4Ms on 262s, didn't realize that Doras had them as well?!? - as stated it would of been quite a battle and not a cake walk although the radar controlled turrets would of given a hell of a lot better protection for the bombers provided they weren't first shredded by the rockets.....

I think the X-4 would of been devastating provided the launch plane could get off a good shot. I know I'm talking decades later, but I knew helicopter pilots who fired wire guided weapons. If no one was shooting at you, the aircraft was stable and you had a clear view of the target, they could be deadly. I doubt you could get that scenario while attacking a stream of B-29s with a bunch of escorts buzzing around.

 

[syscom3]

Wow! If the war had continued, there is no telling how bad the bomber groups would have been bloodied. Not that they weren't already getting bloodied.

Actually, by Sept 1944, the Luftwaffe pretty muched ceased to exist as an effective force. When you look at the stats, after that date, few B17's and B24's were getting shot down by fighters.

Having the rockets gives the Ta152 a leg up on shooting down a bomber..... but I would guess the B29's would counter with 30mm, maybe 37mm cannons in the tail position.

Note - Wire guided air-to-air missles require a stable platform that isnt maneauvering. If a fighter does that, its going to be shot down quickly. Remote control missles have always been prone to jamming.

 

[Erich]

sorry but the Luftwaffe ceased to exist in May of 45 or should we say by March of 45 when Me 262's were about the only things that faced the RAF and US, the Reich defence depleted since 9/10ths of the gruppen went to the Ost front for the last battles for Berlin.

no matter the R4M's were outside the range of 30mm and 37mm. this is all getting to what ifs with a/c comparisons that never actually took place with the Ta and the thread has run it's course............downward

 

[wmaxt]

As Erich correctly once put it, it is silly to debate if the 152 was conceived to deal with the dreaded B-29. By the way, no matter how sophisticated the B-29 might have been, had it seen action in numbers over Europe its fate would have been no different to that suffered by the B-24s and B-17s.

One thing, the overal loss for the AAF heavy bombers in the ETO was 5,548 of which 2,452 were from German Aircraft. Anti Aircraft fire got 5,439.

The average percentage before the escorts were 5% to 6% of the whole bomber stream. Yes there were missions that were significantly higher, but those numbers are included. Starting with the P-38 escorts the percentage dropped to 1% to 2% of the sorties flown.

The B-29 at altitude would be even less vunerable esp to the AA fire.

I'm not convinced the Ta-152 and the B-29 are totaly unrelated, the performance envelope is too close, though it is possible it's coincidence.

wmaxt

 

[Erich]

one thing friend your losses cannot be summarized using AA. It is too incomplete. One thing is that during the summer of 44 with the quick SturmFw 190 tactics many US bomber crews thought they had been hit by Flak but they were not. Same goes for many RAF crews flying heavies over the Reich, they were downed by Schräge Musik, 15th AF B-24 crews flying over Austria/Hungary at night came up with the same response if they made it back to base luckily....it had to be Flak.

The losses due to German a/c cannot be counted as complete as many claims/kills records have been lost and during the fall of 44 the processing and officially awarding claims was discontinued. In other words there are no official counts whether German or US/RAF

 

[wmaxt]

one thing friend your losses cannot be summarized using AA. It is too incomplete. One thing is that during the summer of 44 with the quick SturmFw 190 tactics many US bomber crews thought they had been hit by Flak but they were not. Same goes for many RAF crews flying heavies over the Reich, they were downed by Schräge Musik, 15th AF B-24 crews flying over Austria/Hungary at night came up with the same response if they made it back to base luckily....it had to be Flak.

The losses due to German a/c cannot be counted as complete as many claims/kills records have been lost and during the fall of 44 the processing and officially awarding claims was discontinued. In other words there are no official counts whether German or US/RAF

You may be right. The numbers I showed above are AAF Statistical Records and they may be off a little in the AA/Aircraft kills ratio but considering the majority of the time the German aircraft did not go into AA zones it's most likely very close. As to the overall nomber (which includes 657 losses to other causes) are the actual numbers the AAF lost.

I have read that aircraft that made it home but were not repairable may not be included in that number.

wmaxt

 

[Erich]

it is up to discernment unfortunately........

for night time losses are as follows. total for the Night gruppen : 7,308 confirmed day and night victories.

Day time activities as I previously mentioned. Göring in his own assinine way ordered the single enigine fighter units to intercept bomber pulks even during the bombers prescence in Flak barrage segments.
Imagine thinking that your own AA would blast you as well as .50's

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Scary thought! I bet Goring would still call them cowards!

 

[Erich]

The fat Ass actually did on several occassions to the SturmFw pilots telling the Gruppen Kommandeurs/pilots that they were not closing in with the bombers and taking more of them down. also in 44 it was ordered for single engine day fighters in the Reich to keep the drop tank in place when engaging enemy a/c as fuel was to precious to waste............another lame brain idea from the big boy

 

[plan_D]

I have one thing for you Udet -


Fact of the matter is, concerning the Spitfire, it's already been proven that the Spitfire didn't lose handling as it went up through the marks.

I don't need to bring my knowledge into a discussion with you because you just show yourself up.

I was wrong before, you're not an ass. You're a pussy. And I'm a dick, and we fuck pussies.

Carry on with your real discussion the rest of you lads. It's great.

 

[Gemhorse]

IMO the Ta152 was a superlative aircraft designed to tackle High-altitude enemy aircraft....

One aircraft that consistently flew high-altitude missions over Germany from 1942 throughout the War, was the PR Mosquitos, and often they thwarted multiple attacks by Luftwaffe fighters, to bring the photos home. They also built a variant specifically to deal with the Ju86P, back in 1942, but the Luftwaffe cancelled their missions before this Mossie variant could be used...and as mentioned, the other successful PR variant was the Spitfire, and a model of this was also developed for use against the Ju86P's...

I read with interest about all these ''hairy-assed fighters'' that would n' could bring down the Ta-152, but I for one think it was quite a tribute to Tank's inventiveness to come up with this aircraft, albeit rather late in the fray, to try and stem the torrent of Allied aircraft pummeling Germany. I for one had fallen under the spell of Green's books on Luftwaffe aircraft, but the fact remains, they built some exceptionally innovative aircraft, I've always found Capt. Eric Brown's reports most informative about them, and the mention of the Ar-335 and Ar-234 indicate a continuing potential to inflict damage to the invading air armada, if they hadn't become starved of fuel and seasoned pilots. Considering that the Lufwaffe's complement of defensive aircraft in the ETO was always limited, they did a remarkable job right to the bitter end with what they had, and the USAAF bombers at great cost to themselves managed to dispatch 3000-odd enemy fighters during the overall offensive...

Some believe the Ta-152 was developed for action against the B-29, one of which deliberately came to the UK, via it's trip eastward, to entice enemy intelligence into believing they were indeed scheduled for service in the ETO...which would have been interesting, considering the problems the B-29 was plagued with concerning engine-overheating while trying to achieve it's claimed altitude...

Ironically, the Mosquito continued it's trips in and out of Germany throughout the War, with negligable losses, compared to other aircraft....
For example, the 'Battle of Berlin', which was fought exclusively with Lancasters, supported by Mosquitos, of the 2,034 sorties the bomber- Mossies flew, they only lost 10 aircraft...They had help from 100 Group Intruder Mosquitos keeping watch on Luftwaffe airfields, while 'Serrate' Mosquitos stalked around the bomber streams for enemy nightfighters...

The Mosquito was always a thorn the Luftwaffe never quite effectively dealt with, day or night, by fighters or flak....
At high-altitude, Fw-190's had alot of difficulty bagging them, great l'il fighters they were, so it seems logical that the 'Dora' and Ta-152 development may have had 'Mosquito-swatting' in mind, as well as the bomber-hordes with their ever-increasing number of escorts, relentlessly coming over....

My ''what-if'' aircraft to tackle the TA-152 would be the DH Hornet, which was flying in 1944, and if adapted for high-altitude combat may have been an interesting contender.....

Gemhorse

 

[syscom3]

sorry but the Luftwaffe ceased to exist in May of 45 or should we say by March of 45 when Me 262's were about the only things that faced the RAF and US, the Reich defence depleted since 9/10ths of the gruppen went to the Ost front for the last battles for Berlin.

Although my response to you should be put into a whole different thread, I want to correct a misconception you have about the Luftwaffe.

The statistics dont bear out your quote. The Luftwaffe was around to the end, but its capacity to fight with any effect was long over by summer of 1944.

Heres some facts:
Sept 1944 showed the 8th AF flew 16 missions into German air space (several other missions that month were for support of Market-Garden) with an average of 1000 bombers per mission. 222 bombers were lost. Out of those 16 missions, 7 were flown with no Luftwaffe intercepts with 40 bomber lost due to flak.
The mission on Sept 11 was a major effort against several oil targets, with the vaunted Luftwaffe up in force. Out of 1131 bombers, only 40 bombers were lost, with at least 1/2 due to flak. Figure it out, 20 bombers lost out of 1131. So much for the Luftwaffe existing.

Oct 1944 was even worse for the Luftwaff. 18 bomber missions (with an average of 1200 bombers per mission) with only 121 loss's. In the whole month of October, the Luftwaffe flew only two (thats right, two) intercepts. The -17's and -24's lost 59 planes those two missions, with at least 1/2 due to flak.
Oct 7th was when the Germans had their best success. 1422 bombers attacked several oil installations, with flak bringing down at least 1/2 of the 40 planes shot down.

As the war progressed the final several months, fewer and fewer bombers were being lost to the fighters. The Luftwaffe had simply ceased to exist.

I was also interested in seeing the rockets mounted on the wings of that fighter. I wonder the performance degredation the plane had with so much stuff under the wings. I'd say it would have lost quite some top end speed and maneuverability.

 

[evangilder]

Syscom, just an FYI, but Erich is probably the most well-versed individual on this board when it comes to the Luftwaffe. I would be very careful saying that he has a "misconception" about the Luftwaffe.

The reason less bombers were being lost is because there were more fighter escorts for the bomber formations. The Luftwaffe was still giving our guys hell right up until the end.

 

[Gemhorse]

What you may have found to be the case, was on 1st Jan. 1945, the Luftwaffe initiated Operation 'Bodenplatte', an early morning attack on Allied European airfields, involving about a 1,000 fighters....They may have been husbanding their depleting resources for this operation, which had mixed results for them [I don't have the figures on hand], but they were much reduced after that, but the Nachtjagd was still very active and deadly to the end.....

Gemhorse

 

[syscom3]

Facts are facts. In the grand picture, they werent giving anyone problems after the summer of 1944. So you say they put up 1000 planes on a single day? Wow, Im impressed. And within a week or so, all those planes were gone. On the other hand, on a daily basis, week after week, The 8th was putting up 2000 bombers and 800 fighters, the 9th AF several hundred more, the Brits had thousands more. And Im not counting the 12th and 15th AF, nor the Soviets. Just look at that stat for October.... TWO intercepts the whole month. Thats the sign of an air force that was beaten and on the ropes.

Plain and simple, the Luftwaffe had ceased to exist. Just like a gopher in a field, they could pop out their head and make their presence known, but alter the outcome of the fight? Hardly.

For those that want to see a Beautifull print of Gunter Rall flying his FW190 high in the stratosphere, check this link out. I bought it 1988! I have it hanging right next to my print of a flight of 4th FG Mustangs!

http://www.oliversart.com/acatalog/swansong.htm

 

[Erich]

big friking deal about to engagements in October 44 with the Sturm Fw's dealing out the damges............

September 11, 12, 27, ( Kassel castastrophe when the 445th bg nearly gets wiped out, 30 B-24's shot down ) and the 28th all killing missions of 4 engine heavies primarily by SturmFw's

October I will agree 2 missions but there were others that month although lightly defended.

November 2nd a bomber kick in the balls.

November 21st where one B-17 bomb group gets its stuff kicked out of it by my cousins JG ~ JG 301

November 26th my cousins JG attacks again with 6 others in one of the fiercest aerial battles of the war for the Oil refinery of Misberg.

December if you are familiar with the Ardenne battles: B-26's get their rear almost annihilated and on another mission in late December one of the top US leaders is killed going down with his B-17 while his unit loses another 9-10 B-17's in the process before they even get into Germany.

Look you say say the losses were limited but go ask a US bomber group veteran about those mission that he flew and he will tell you the Luftwaffe was still up giving it to them even when US P-51's were about.
I've got the interviews from both sides the last 36 years.............March 18th 1945, III./JG 7 unleasehes what will probably change aerial combat. R4M's. so confused are the US bomber reports the kills by the jets are given as Flak // on it goes

 

[Erich]

sys:

I had to go back and do a double take of your 16 missions of September 44.

11 September 1944, 14 grouppen in the air, JG 4's first engagement as a Gefechtsverband with Sturmgruppe and III./JG 4 as a high cover: result was over 20 plus B-17's shot down.
IV.Sturm/JG 3 takes on another bomb group and shoots down 13 B-17's

12 September 1944, 13 gruppen in the air. IV.Sturm/JG 3 shoot down 7 B-17's, JG 300 as a whole shoot down 10 B-17's. JG 4 shoots down 11 B-17's with another 9 shot out of formation. I./JG 11 shoot down 6 P-51's. Bf 109G equipped III./JG 53 claim 4 B-17's and a P-51.

27 September 44 over Kassel that I mentioned, Iv.Sturm shoots down 18 of the B-24's confirmed without loss, the rest by SturmFw's of JG 300 and JG 4 // the largest single loss by any one US bomb group during the war (Looks like the Luftwaffe was active to me)

28 September 1944 IV.Sturm/JG 3 shjoot down 10-11 B-17's. Jg 300 as a whole shoot down 10 B-17's, II.Sturm/JG 4 claim 4 and 5 HSS but are given credit for 2 B-17's.

Go check our old web-pages : Sturmgruppen missions 1944, and by the way I am helping write the book on the Kassel misison 27 Sept. 44 with the 445th bg vets.

As to your view on the 1000 plane raids I will totally agree it just didn't happen anymore but the attacks after June of 44's end were more concentrated with indeed much more firepower and the term Blitzschlact became a household word.........

E ~

 

[syscom3]

From your statistics, it looks like the Luftwaffe was effective only in four instances, which is only 1/2 the story. (Note, I dont count cat-e loss's in my numbers as they usually were quite low in numbers, and it is impossible to quantify German loss's due to similar damage)

Sept 11 40 bombers lost out of 1131, 17 US fighters lost, 115 German planes lost.

Sept 12 35 bombers lost out of 888, 12 US fighters lost, 54 German planes lost.

Sept 11 28 bombers lost out of 1192, 2 US fighters lost, 31 German planes lost. This was the 445th BG debacle. 25 lost with three Cat E loss's. However, the Germans lost 25 that same intercept, with one 376th FG pilot becoming an ace-in-a-day.

Sept 11 34 bombers lost out of 1049, 7 US fighters lost, 26 German planes lost.

End result, a couple German groups got into the thick of things, did a good job, and then took high loss's in return. Not all German loss's ended up in the loss of the pilot due to death or injury, but at that stage of the war, the Luftwaffe was gettingsmaller and smaller in the numbers of pilots. And it was reflected in the fewer and fewer missions they were sent up to fight.

Later today, I will cover Nov/Dec time periods to further prove my point. The Luftwaffe didnt exist after Summer 1944.

 

[Erich]

go do sosme more research. you in your haste and like mine have put wrong dates down. Sept. 11 was not the 445th destruction. It is 30 bomber confirmed as I have the info stragiht from 445th bg vets and the historian. there ws no 376th fg in the air on the 28th it was the 361st yellowjackets and Jg 3 was out of the area

your facts are incorrect on losses from the US point of view besides.

The luftwaffe did exist but not in the great numbers thrown at the US heavies in 43 or early 44.

You obviously are not reading the two previous postings very well........go ask some US bg vets if the Luftwaffe did not exist in the summer of 44 till February 45.

7-7-44 56 US heavies were lost confirmed by US sources during the Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben. The US 492nd almost ceased to exist as well the 15th AF flew to far north into Germany and received the second round of attacks, something the 15hth AF histories do not include or should I say are very reluctant to share information on. I have more if you would like.

Are you so concerned about numbers of Luftwaffe a/c in the air that it would make that much difference to US losses overall ? .......... it would appear so to me and the other board members.

You mention a few Luftwaffe units only but it is quite simple and true the SturmFw gruppen, all three of them made a huge impression especially upon 8th AF command that US P-51 Mustang escorts were increased to drive the Fw heavies off if at all possible

 

[syscom3]

Oops, my mistake. The last two dates should have been Sept 27th and 28th.

Sorry about that!!!!