The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[Monkeysee1]

As to Guest's comment on the wing twist. Almost all wings have some kind of 'twist' to them. The actual reason is to provide stall warning (through buffeting on the more cambered portion of the wing) while the outside of the wing, the ailerons, still remain effective even though the inside portion of the wing was essentially stalling.

Very few aircraft actually have a wing 'twist'. Most wings are built with the root portion of the wing having a greater camber as it joins the fuselage. These two methods however are generally more expensive than other methods used to simulate wing 'twist'. The most common one you'll see is the 'stall strip'. Literally a piece of metal bolted or welded onto the leading edge of a wing to disrupt the airflow there first. A great example of this is the Lear 35.

Anyway, I still think a P-47 could smoke the 152. Didn't it have a higher ceiling by 7,000 ft or so? And... for some reason I thought it was still faster than the 152? For sure it didn't have the questionable construction that late war German construction suffered from.

 

[lesofprimus]

Really depends on the model of -47 we're talkin about...

Plain and simple, the -152H was more than a handful for ANY pilot in ANY aircraft to deal with...

 

[Jabberwocky]

The problem here is that no-one is making comparisons with other fighters. Its all well and good to state that the Ta-152 was the best High-Altitude fighter, but WHY was it so? What made it better than its opponents.

What qualifications did it have to make it THE BEST?

Speed?
Range?
Service Ceiling?
Armament?
Sighting?
Climb?
Dive?
Roll?
Stall warnings?
Instanteous turn?
Turning circle?
Visibility?
Quality of production?
Easy of handling?
Ease of mainenence?
Ease of Production?
Ease of pilot conversion?
Slow speed flight characteristics?
Landing characteristics?

All of these factors need to be considered before a judgement can be made.

We also need to look at aircraft that could of been potential competitors in the high altitude stakes

Likely ones are;

P-47M
P-47N
P-51H
Spitfire XIV
Spitfire XVIII
Spitfire 21
Yak-9U

When you look at the list of opponents the Ta-152 suddenly doesn't seem as fierce as it did wen it was going up against P-51Ds, P-47-D-30s and Spitfire IXs. In many cases it is out-run, out-climbed, out-turned, out-dived and out manouvered by it Allied counterparts. With the exception of the Yak, all of these planes have a 40,000 foot plus flight ceiling, engines that are rated over 2000 hp and (with the exception of the P-51H), quite heavy armament and are just as much at home in this environment as the Ta..

 

[Udet]

Mr. Jabber:

From where is it that you concluded some of those allied planes "out-run, out-dived, out-manouvered and out-turned" the Ta 152?

I do not have the time to conduct any in depth technical discussion here; however, I will bring up elements extracted from the combat records that can add strenght to the notion of how superb the Ta 152 was.

At very high altitude, the Bf 109, G-6 and G-10 (the versions which saw the most action against both RAF and USAAF in 1944) were formidable fighters against anything fielded by the enemy. The especially trimmed AS variants came to increase the value of the version.

The Butcher Bird, Fw 190 A´s, could easily chew anything sent out by the enemy at mid/low altitude. Emil Lang, for instance, shot down 4 P-51´s in less than 5 minutes...twice. Or the sturmböck pilots flying their Fw´s fitted with rough 250 kg of extra armor who managed to digest Mustangs during the fierce air battles of 1944.

Now, the "long nose" Fw 190 D, appeared to fill the high altitude gap of its predecessor. Appearing in modest numbers in battle also proved its worth against anything fielded by the enemy.

The Ta 152 came as the final evolution of Kurt Tank´s fighter. The tests showed it left both the Bf 109 and the previous Fw190s behind. We know it, too little and too late for the Ta 152 as well.

As for the combat record of the Ta 152 you can check the accounts of stab/JG 301 during the final weeks of the war. Being an extremely high altitude fighter, the Ta 152 proved lethal against the soviet Yaks at very low altitude during the very last days of the war.

 

[lesofprimus]

Jabberwok, if u go back to page one and read the whole thread, u will see several arguments and info concerning this question...

 

[Monkeysee1]

I keep hearing that the TA152 would have been used for top cover for ME262 fields. This just doesn't make sense. Why would you have a high altitude fighter provide low altitude cover? Most landing patterns are anywhere from 0' to 3000' agl. Down this low the 152 would have suffered. Those big ol' beautiful wings it had would have had big drag penalties down low. It wouldn't have been as fast as other aircraft, thus more vulnerable. So I question the validity of those claims saying it was used mainly for top cover over 262 airfields. Maybe... but then it was a bad decision, or they flew top cover at 30,000' for a landing pattern at 2000'. Just doesn't work for me on that score.

 

[Erich]

so Monkey where do you hear these myths of Hohenjäger for 262's ? the whole stement is a joke and is not backed by any factual evidence. My cousin served in Jg 301 and I have a bit of info on the tank plus copies of flugbuchs of the units vets. The Ta could almost bust out 500mph as well as almost toping out beyond 47,000 feet in tests by at least 6 pilots.

to be truthful we are not going to know if the Ta could take on a P-47N or other late mark Spits

 

[lesofprimus]

We can agree tho that the Ta-152H was the definitive prop job for the Luftwaffe....

Several pilots who had the chance to fly the -152 said that at altitude, there was nothing to compare it to, because it was so superior to anything else they had ever flown...

Although it was planned to be used as a top cover aircraft, it never did set upon that task, instead being relegated mostly to short intercepts of Russian Yaks at mid level altitudes, in which it truly owned the Yakolev fighters...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Just a small point....

I recently came across a book "German Aircraft in Soviet Service," and it showed several FW-190D and TA-152H in Soviet markings. The text stated the aircraft were assigned to a Baltic "High Altitude Incerceptor Squadron" and remained in use until 1948.....

I wish I had bought this book!

 

[evangilder]

I would guess those -152s were captured at war's end and used by the Soviets in a high altitude interceptor squadron because they had nothing else to perform at that altitude other than the captured German aircraft.

 

[Erich]

Les I still doubt seriously that the Ta was developed as a high cover a/c. there is no written proof in the German. It was selected to combat high altitiude P-51's for which it was not destined. It took on several Soviet types, RAF Tempests and US P-47's. There is even a quote that a B-17 was claimed but this is doubtful as well.

 

[syscom3]

The Butcher Bird, Fw 190 A´s, could easily chew anything sent out by the enemy at mid/low altitude. Emil Lang, for instance, shot down 4 P-51´s in less than 5 minutes...twice. Or the sturmböck pilots flying their Fw´s fitted with rough 250 kg of extra armor who managed to digest Mustangs during the fierce air battles of 1944.

There were numerous occasions when P47's, P51's and P38's "chewed" and "digested" multiple 109's and 190's.

There were even many occasions when multiple 109's and 190's were chewed and digested by B17's and B24's. I bet we can also say the Soviets had the same luck against the 109's and 190's.

A great pilot in almost any airplane can shootdown a less capable pilot flying a great plane. So lets not say that the -109 and -190 planes were the do all to end all fighters, cause they werent.

In all fairness, if the Ta-152 had acceptable maneuverability in the roll rate, then we can rank it as the best high altitude interceptor of WW2.

Has anyone wondered what the results of a Ta-152 vs F4U-5 would be? That would have been an interesting matchup (I know the -5 didnt come out untill the end of the war... but its just hypothetical)

 

[Erich]

syscom your question although a what if was covered in back threads. this thread probably should been called "The best high altitude interceptor in the ETO " ?

indeed it may well have been though it's service record doesn't chart it's high alt ops exploits. Armed as it was in the H-0 and H-1 versions it would of competed with anything the Allies were going to throw in it's way including B-17's/B-24's or Lancasters in the day role

 

[syscom3]

Heres an interesting thought..... Ta-152's vs B29's.

I wonder if the B29's computer controlled defensive firepower could neutralize the -152's firepower?

 

[Erich]

fuuny but your statement is another myth that has been developed over time after the war that the Ta 152H was to contend the B-29 if it was to be brought over to the ETO. Fact is the the TA was to be used as a weapon against the P-51 and that any bomber would then be subjected to jet attacks/tactics which were going through changes at wars end when newer more streamlined arsenals were to be produced

 

[wmaxt]

fuuny but your statement is another myth that has been developed over time after the war that the Ta 152H was to contend the B-29 if it was to be brought over to the ETO. Fact is the the TA was to be used as a weapon against the P-51 and that any bomber would then be subjected to jet attacks/tactics which were going through changes at wars end when newer more streamlined arsenals were to be produced

You know you have a lot of good points but:

1. The Ta-152 was optimized for fighting above the service envelope of the Mustang.
2. The B-29 was capable/designed to fly within the flight envolope of the Ta-152.
3. The Germans had a priority on the collection of information on the B-29 and options to counter it.

I haven't heard any official info pro/con on this but it sure explaines the intrest/effort put into a program that doesn't seem to apply or be needed for the P-51.

Do you have something that shows why the Ta-152 program was persued?

wmaxt

 

[lesofprimus]

erich, I never said the Ta was designed or developed for the high cover roll.... It was designed, as u know, for high altitude interception...

The -190D-9 variant served this roll quite well as a stop gap till the -152 could be properly mated with the correct powerplant, the Jumo 213E-1, that Herr Dr. Tank desired...

 

[Erich]

yes I have information in the German as to why the Ta was created and for it's optimal useage but of course we know that did not happen. the P-51's were to be brought up hoping that the Ta's in staffel strength could always pounce down upon the mustangs with the sun in their faces. a novel idea of course that did not develop, and one that German pilots were hoping to even out the odds.

I have never seen any official documentation to support the theory that there would be B-29/Ta 152 engagements. I did see the myth written in the early 1960's in the English in old aerial a/c books printed in the states that have since fallen by the wayside. In accordanace with what I know of friend Jerry Crandall his work when published on JG 301 with heavy emphasis on the Ta 152H should be remidied for all those interested as he has worked on the NASM Ta flown by pilot Walter Loos

 

[Erich]

Les no my comment was for Monkeysee. We have had the discussion before in the past. The Dora was a stop gap that was to be ceased until enough Tank's could role off the lines as well as an increase in redesigned Me 262's in Reich defence and in fact an allotment was to be drawn and given to JG 300 for just this purpose starting in the summer of 1945. JG 7 would of gotten it's fair share for the struggling II. gruppe which was a paper outfit and the so-called squadron of experten, JV 44 would of been enlarged to full Geschwader strength. R4M's with about 48 per craft would of been standard in the jet vs bomber roles and of course the refit of AT rockets against the Soviets, but as we know the war ended before this all could even take place

 

[wmaxt]

yes I have information in the German as to why the Ta was created and for it's optimal useage but of course we know that did not happen. the P-51's were to be brought up hoping that the Ta's in staffel strength could always pounce down upon the mustangs with the sun in their faces. a novel idea of course that did not develop, and one that German pilots were hoping to even out the odds.

I have never seen any official documentation to support the theory that there would be B-29/Ta 152 engagements. I did see the myth written in the early 1960's in the English in old aerial a/c books printed in the states that have since fallen by the wayside. In accordanace with what I know of friend Jerry Crandall his work when published on JG 301 with heavy emphasis on the Ta 152H should be remidied for all those interested as he has worked on the NASM Ta flown by pilot Walter Loos

Something to think about is that most myths have a basis in truth and the lack of evidence does not mean nonexistence. Performance levels of the 109K/190D/262 was adequate, the Ta-152 was an extravagance that was not required, for the P-51. There is more to it than coming out of the sun to get P-51s because they could already do that.

For now I'm going to keep my mind open to the possibility/liklyhood.

wmaxt